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tOfficial Arguing About Al Borges Thread

  • Arguments about Al Borges don't quite seem like they belong in the 2013 offseason thread, and they definitely don't belong in the 2014 recruiting thread. So: love him, hate him, indifferent? Let's get it out of our system in here so it doesn't take over other threads.

    My two cents:
    -I was one of the first people on board the #FireBorges bandwagon last year, and I still think that his inflexibility squandered Denard Robinson
    -I hold him primarily responsible for our losses against Notre Dame and Ohio State
    -However, I was very encouraged by the game he called against South Carolina. I am also very encouraged by some of the noises he's been making this offseason about learning from the offenses San Francisco and Washington are running.
    -At this point, I think the #FireBorges movement should take a pause, and wait to see what happens next year.

    inuyesta

  • No excuses for Al this season. Put up or get the hell out of town.

    signature image signature image signature image

    sircharles11

  • sircharles11 said...

    No excuses for Al this season. Put up or get the hell out of town.

    ^this times 10

    BLUEinTX

  • inuyesta said...

    Arguments about Al Borges don't quite seem like they belong in the 2013 offseason thread, and they definitely don't belong in the 2014 recruiting thread. So: love him, hate him, indifferent? Let's get it out of our system in here so it doesn't take over other threads.

    My two cents: -I was one of the first people on board the #FireBorges bandwagon last year, and I still think that his inflexibility squandered Denard Robinson -I hold him primarily responsible for our losses against Notre Dame and Ohio State -However, I was very encouraged by the game he called against South Carolina. I am also very encouraged by some of the noises he's been making this offseason about learning from the offenses San Francisco and Washington are running. -At this point, I think the #FireBorges movement should take a pause, and wait to see what happens next year.

    While I was very encouraged by the game he called against SC. That was a rock solid defense in the college football landscape. I loved the creativity we got to see, but my question is this. Will Borges show he is able to be creative when he only has one week to game plan rather than a whole month? Week by week a lot of his game plans looked very similar, once he got a whole month to game plan then he came out with something special. Is it just me guys, or does Borges lack creativity on a week to week basis?

    johnzo19

  • I don't know guys...just don't see how the blame for the first two years is on Borges. We all knew two years ago anyone attempting to use Denard at QB not named Rich Rod would have troubles.

    Michigan offense:
    2011 - 34.2 points per game, 423 yards, 2nd in Big Ten (1st - 44.6 ppg)
    2012 - 30.0 ppg, 385 yards, 6th (37.2)

    These aren't terrible numbers; they're actually pretty decent considering a coaching change, new offense, and unlucky and/or terrible recruiting the previous few years. We also played excellent defenses in Alabama, ND, MSU, and South Carolina, and a good defense with a RS freshman at Nerbraska.

    I was pissed about the 2012 Ohio State second half and 2011 MSU & Iowa, but our team had a lot of personnel issues the past two years. To blame Borges seems like the lazy thing to do. I think there are more direct causes (Denard's inconsistency, interior oline, no workhorse RB, poor downfield receiving threats, etc.) than QB coaching and playcalling. I'm pumped for Gardner this year, even more so for the years Borges has with his guys.

    hardware_sushi

  • He lacks creativity when he has a QB who can't throw worth a lick/make proper reads/decisions, can't see over the offensive line, lacks weapons at WR, etc etc etc. I would have liked to see more rollouts overall with Denard, but it is what it is. I have definitely been furios with Borges at certain points. How many times can you hand the ball off to Vincent Smith up the middle before you figure out that it doesn't work? Apparently, he never realized that. The offense got and looked better with DG under center IMO. Wish we could have just better utilized DROB , but I understand he was injured then, and still is currently. I think we are going to see a very strong year IRT passing statistics in 2013, even with a 5'8 dude being our number 1 WR. It's why it's so clutch that either Chesson/Darboh, or both, emerge....

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Jbolin9992 on 3/5/2013 at 2:39 PM

    Jbolin9992

  • hardware_sushi said...

    I don't know guys...just don't see how the blame for the first two years is on Borges. We all knew two years ago anyone attempting to use Denard at QB not named Rich Rod would have troubles.

    Michigan offense:
    2011 - 34.2 points per game, 423 yards, 2nd in Big Ten (1st - 44.6 ppg)
    2012 - 30.0 ppg, 385 yards, 6th (37.2)

    These aren't terrible numbers; they're actually pretty decent considering a coaching change, new offense, and unlucky and/or terrible recruiting the previous few years. We also played excellent defenses in Alabama, ND, MSU, and South Carolina, and a good defense with a RS freshman at Nerbraska.

    I was pissed about the 2012 Ohio State second half and 2011 MSU & Iowa, but our team had a lot of personnel issues the past two years. To blame Borges seems like the lazy thing to do. I think there are more direct causes (Denard's inconsistency, interior oline, no workhorse RB, poor downfield receiving threats, etc.) than QB coaching and playcalling. I'm pumped for Gardner this year, even more so for the years Borges has with his guys.

    I hear u but his bone head play calls on big downs in big games is what stops me from defending him

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by BLUEinTX on 3/5/2013 at 2:49 PM

    BLUEinTX

  • Jbolin9992 said...

    He lacks creativity when he has a QB who can't throw worth a lick/make proper reads/decisions, can't see over the offensive line, lacks weapons at WR, etc etc etc.

    I guess that's what I'm saying: It's really really tough to have a QB that can't throw, make reads, or see (in your words) even if you're a great OC. It's a testament to Borges that he did what he did with Denard in 2011.

    He wouldn't have recruited Denard. Borges did his best, averaging 30 or more points both seasons. How quick people forget, we averaged 30.2 ppg in 2006, 30.3 in 2004, 33.7 in 2000, and 37.2 in 2003, the best years of Lloyd's 2000s (Not saying Lloyd was a beacon of offensive light, just that we had good players).

    Compare that to Borges with a QB that can't do any of the things you say. Hopefully with Gardner, Shane and Speight (and all the other gigantic highly rated players they've brought in), they'll be able to run his style.

    This post was edited by hardware_sushi on 3/5/2013 at 3:00 PM

    hardware_sushi

  • I have no faith in Al Borges.

    I do want to ask a question:

    What did Borges do in the the Outback Bowl that was actually creative? It wasn't a bad game for Borges, but it seems like "Use Denard as a tailback" is what gets Borges credited as "creative". Who wouldn't have called a similar gameplan considering the circumstances? The Denard plays were basically ISO, zone read, throwback screen, and that jet handoff they usually ran with Gallon.

    In my opinion, the only creative playcalling Borges has done for Michigan was 2011 Minnesota, and most of that disappeared until he brought a couple of plays out for the Outback Bowl almost out of necessity.

    bkp1883

  • bkp1883 said...

    I have no faith in Al Borges.

    I do want to ask a question:

    What did Borges do in the the Outback Bowl that was actually creative? It wasn't a bad game for Borges, but it seems like "Use Denard as a tailback" is what gets Borges credited as "creative". Who wouldn't have called a similar gameplan considering the circumstances? The Denard plays were basically ISO, zone read, throwback screen, and that jet handoff they usually ran with Gallon.

    In my opinion, the only creative playcalling Borges has done for Michigan was 2011 Minnesota, and most of that disappeared until he brought a couple of plays out for the Outback Bowl almost out of necessity.

    What do you mean by creative? Are you thinking like use trick plays and Boise State Fiesta Bowl more creative, or is it a frustration with our run game?

    I think the latter was the biggest issue once we had a semi-competent QB in Gardner. Our interior oline was simply not very good; therefore, we couldn't run the ball to setup some of the more creative passing stuff that I think we will see in the next few years.

    In the Outback Bowl, they had some very nice passing series to work the ball down the field mixed in with Denard runs. Curls, outs, WRs sit down in gaps a couple times, rollouts to buy time. Also a good combo of passing and scrambling by Gardner against a very athletic, big and fast defensive front.

    Who else did you want Borges to use in the backfield with DG? Our 'starter' had one leg, and nobody else had done anything all year. Denard as a tailback is what people were pining for all year and we sort of got it at OSU and really got it in Florida. Had he not run Denard, everyone would be calling him crazy for not handing it off to him more.

    hardware_sushi

  • hardware_sushi said...

    I guess that's what I'm saying: It's really really tough to have a QB that can't throw, make reads, or see (in your words) even if you're a great OC. It's a testament to Borges that he did what he did with Denard in 2011.

    He wouldn't have recruited Denard. Borges did his best, averaging 30 or more points both seasons. How quick people forget, we averaged 30.2 ppg in 2006, 30.3 in 2004, 33.7 in 2000, and 37.2 in 2003, the best years of Lloyd's 2000s (Not saying Lloyd was a beacon of offensive light, just that we had good players).

    Compare that to Borges with a QB that can't do any of the things you say. Hopefully with Gardner, Shane and Speight (and all the other gigantic highly rated players they've brought in), they'll be able to run his style.

    Stats are boosted by teams with weak ds. His O crumbled like paper against a solid D

    BLUEinTX

  • hardware_sushi said...

    Had he not run Denard, everyone would be calling him crazy for not handing it off to him more.

    That's my point. Folks are calling him creative for doing something that EVERYONE wished he would have done in previous games.

    bkp1883

  • hardware_sushi said...

    What do you mean by creative? Are you thinking like use trick plays and Boise State Fiesta Bowl more creative, or is it a frustration with our run game?

    I think the latter was the biggest issue once we had a semi-competent QB in Gardner. Our interior oline was simply not very good; therefore, we couldn't run the ball to setup some of the more creative passing stuff that I think we will see in the next few years.

    In the Outback Bowl, they had some very nice passing series to work the ball down the field mixed in with Denard runs. Curls, outs, WRs sit down in gaps a couple times, rollouts to buy time. Also a good combo of passing and scrambling by Gardner against a very athletic, big and fast defensive front.

    Who else did you want Borges to use in the backfield with DG? Our 'starter' had one leg, and nobody else had done anything all year. Denard as a tailback is what people were pining for all year and we sort of got it at OSU and really got it in Florida. Had he not run Denard, everyone would be calling him crazy for not handing it off to him more.

    I like d-rod in at RB and wr but hated that he would put him at wild cat. The D knew what was coming and it put DG in a funk. For example see the 2nd half of the OSU game.

    BLUEinTX

  • hardware_sushi said...

    I guess that's what I'm saying: It's really really tough to have a QB that can't throw, make reads, or see (in your words) even if you're a great OC. It's a testament to Borges that he did what he did with Denard in 2011.

    Nope, sorry, don't buy this for one second. Denard Robinson had a Heisman-quality year as a sophomore under Rich Rod's system. He did nothing but regress under Borges - not just as a passer, but as a runner and decision-maker, too - because Borges was busy trying to cram a round peg in a square hole. A quality coach adjusts his plans to the talents of his players. Do we see Mike Shanahan running the same offense with RG3 as he did with Elway? Borges' worst quality is that he gets stubborn and sticks with things that just don't work: his insistence on trying to mold Denard into his offense rather than scrapping the old way of doing things and building around the once-in-a-generation talent right under his nose is the ultimate example of that failure.

    Just for reference, Denard was 20th in the country in passer rating in 2010. Here are some of the QBs that he out-performed that year: Landry Jones, Geno Smith, Robert Griffin III, Tyler Bray, Matt Barkley, Nick Foles, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Russell Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, and Jake Locker. He was also within a point of Colin Kaepernick (#19 that year). I don't know if he would have developed into an NFL quarterback the way those guys did, but I really don't want to hear that Denard couldn't have been a successful passer in college. With the right system, the sky was the limit for him, and I'll not forgive Borges for squandering that potential.

    inuyesta

  • inuyesta said...

    Nope, sorry, don't buy this for one second. Denard Robinson had a Heisman-quality year as a sophomore under Rich Rod's system. He did nothing but regress under Borges - not just as a passer, but as a runner and decision-maker, too - because Borges was busy trying to cram a round peg in a square hole. A quality coach adjusts his plans to the talents of his players. Do we see Mike Shanahan running the same offense with RG3 as he did with Elway? Borges' worst quality is that he gets stubborn and sticks with things that just don't work: his insistence on trying to mold Denard into his offense rather than scrapping the old way of doing things and building around the once-in-a-generation talent right under his nose is the ultimate example of that failure.

    Just for reference, Denard was 20th in the country in passer rating in 2010. Here are some of the QBs that he out-performed that year: Landry Jones, Geno Smith, Robert Griffin III, Tyler Bray, Matt Barkley, Nick Foles, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Russell Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, and Jake Locker. He was also within a point of Colin Kaepernick (#19 that year). I don't know if he would have developed into an NFL quarterback the way those guys did, but I really don't want to hear that Denard couldn't have been a successful passer in college. With the right system, the sky was the limit for him, and I'll not forgive Borges for squandering that potential.

    BOOM. Haha. If u are getting paid the money he is you do ur job

    BLUEinTX

  • inuyesta said...

    Nope, sorry, don't buy this for one second. Denard Robinson had a Heisman-quality year as a sophomore under Rich Rod's system. He did nothing but regress under Borges - not just as a passer, but as a runner and decision-maker, too - because Borges was busy trying to cram a round peg in a square hole. A quality coach adjusts his plans to the talents of his players. Do we see Mike Shanahan running the same offense with RG3 as he did with Elway? Borges' worst quality is that he gets stubborn and sticks with things that just don't work: his insistence on trying to mold Denard into his offense rather than scrapping the old way of doing things and building around the once-in-a-generation talent right under his nose is the ultimate example of that failure.

    Just for reference, Denard was 20th in the country in passer rating in 2010. Here are some of the QBs that he out-performed that year: Landry Jones, Geno Smith, Robert Griffin III, Tyler Bray, Matt Barkley, Nick Foles, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Russell Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, and Jake Locker. He was also within a point of Colin Kaepernick (#19 that year). I don't know if he would have developed into an NFL quarterback the way those guys did, but I really don't want to hear that Denard couldn't have been a successful passer in college. With the right system, the sky was the limit for him, and I'll not forgive Borges for squandering that potential.

    So we should have just kept Rich Rod on staff as the Offensive coordinator...

    johnzo19

  • If you don't know the extreme differences when comparing a rich rod lead offense where You had to make no downfield reads or read a defense, to a west coast - pro style offense, nobody can help you. Rich rod runs his offense/schemes and gets/puts his receivers in spots like very few others. Borges tried as best as he knew how to keep some of the spread tendencies. Personally, I just think he gets too much blame, sort of like a QB. I don't think Borges is anywhere near perfect, but I think the offense will come more to form this upcoming year

    This post was edited by Wbolin999 on 3/5/2013 at 3:44 PM

    Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.

    Wbolin999

  • Wbolin999 said...

    If you don't know the extreme differences when comparing a rich rod lead offense where You had to make no downfield reads or read a defense, to a west coast - pro style offense, nobody can help you. Rich rod runs his offense/schemes and gets/puts his receivers in spots like very few others. Borges tried as best as he knew how to keep some of the spread tendencies. Personally, I just think he gets too much blame, sort of like a QB. I don't think Borges is anywhere near perfect, but I think the offense will come more to form this upcoming year

    ^This

    johnzo19

  • Wbolin999 said...

    If you don't know the extreme differences when comparing a rich rod lead offense where You had to make no downfield reads or read a defense, to a west coast - pro style offense, nobody can help you. Rich rod runs his offense/schemes and gets/puts his receivers in spots like very few others. Borges tried as best as he knew how to keep some of the spread tendencies. Personally, I just think he gets too much blame, sort of like a QB. I don't think Borges is anywhere near perfect, but I think the offense will come more to form this upcoming year

    I agree with this. I wasn't thrilled with how Borges used Denard but good god give the man a chance now that we are getting the players to run the pro style west coast or pistol offense.

    signature image signature image signature image

    WillyWolverine

  • Lol Borges didn't ruin anything IRT denard and his future at QB in the pros or anywhere else. He would/will never ever ever be an NFL QB. That's not who he is.

    Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.

    Wbolin999

  • WillyWolverine said...

    I agree with this. I wasn't thrilled with how Borges used Denard but good god give the man a chance now that we are getting the players to run the pro style west coast or pistol offense.

    He get another year to prove he is our guy but I till then he has shown nothing for me to put blind faith in him.

    BLUEinTX

  • Everyone's more than welcome to their opinion, and I do think this is the year that ill really be a stickler IRT to Borges. Also, it makes it even harder on an OC when you couldn't run on a high school tream(in regards to Michigans running game last year). Just awful. If Michigan can maintain good balance and another WR option emerges, I think people will be pleasantly surprised. Devin Gardner will make a big leap this year.

    Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.

    Wbolin999

  • BLUEinTX said...

    He get another year to prove he is our guy but I till then he has shown nothing for me to put blind faith in him.

    lol Not asking for blind faith but bashing him every chance you get isn't exactly giving the guy a chance.

    signature image signature image signature image

    WillyWolverine

  • WillyWolverine said...

    lol Not asking for blind faith but bashing him every chance you get isn't exactly giving the guy a chance.

    He gets next year to change my mind and that's the chance he is getting

    BLUEinTX

  • johnzo19 said...

    So we should have just kept Rich Rod on staff as the Offensive coordinator...

    I knew there was a 0% chance of it happening, but that's exactly what I wanted to happen in 2010 as it became clear RichRod would be fired

    inuyesta

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