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Would you do it the osu way for 10 years of success?

  • blue2468 said...

    Yes it does.

    If a athlete only got a scholarship from a school like Middle Tennessee or Troy, is that still not a free education?

    Are they not still not getting a degree from a school for free?

    And putting it in terms of revenue, most of those crappier academic schools are not good football programs as well, and those schools don't put out a lot of revenue, do they?

    Nice shifting goal posts. Your original argument was that players are compensated by getting "a free education from one of the top schools in the country"

    Also, "most of those crappier academic schools are not good football programs as well"...really? Ohio State is something other than a crappy academic school? LSU? Alabama? Ad infinitum. And as if the education weren't poor enough for the general student bodies of those schools, the "football factory"-type schools typically couldn't give a censored less what their kids are doing in the classroom...they'll stretch their admissions criteria as far as the NCAA will let them to get kids who should be ineligible into school, and then once the kids are there they steer them into bullcensored classes in bullcensored majors so they have maximum time available for the field/training room. Look at Morris Claiborne's Wonderlic score. Look at all the former NFL stars like Warren Sapp who go broke after a few years of retirement because have never been taught anything about money management. Yeah...sweet "education" these guys are getting.

    inuyesta

  • inuyesta said...

    The "Free educations" really don't cost "a whole lot of money" at all. The marginal expense of adding 85 football players to the student body of a university with 10-50k undergrads is absolutely miniscule, if it even exists at all.

    Also, I'll reiterate that free tuition is the absolute bare minimum compensation that players could possibly receive. Without that, there would be no big-time college football, period.

    I'll remind you that all that "free publicity" (lol) kids are getting is absolutely worthless because they are barred from profiting from it in the form of endorsements/etc.

    And college football players are no more "just playing a game" than NFL players. They are employees in a multi-billion dollar industry, an industry controlled by a cartel which openly colludes to force down the price of labor. Again, this would be illegal in any other context.

    Michigan's AD pays for every scholarship they give out. They write and pay for each student they give a scholarship out. I don't know if that's how it works at other locations, but it is at Michigan. It's far far far from minuscule.

    Go talk with nearly any former college player who got a some pub, got a degree and went into the work force what that type of publicity will do for your networking and ability to land a job. They'll laugh at you if you say it's absolutely worthless. I've literally had former players say the 100% opposite, that it's priceless.

    They are not employees. And they are just playing a game. If they drop a pass they aren't going to be fired, just benched.... unless they play for Alabama.

    This post was edited by theyellowdart on 4/17/2012 at 2:25 PM

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    theyellowdart

  • inuyesta said...

    Nice shifting goal posts. Your original argument was that players are compensated by getting "a free education from one of the top schools in the country"

    Also, "most of those crappier academic schools are not good football programs as well"...really? Ohio State is something other than a crappy academic school? LSU? Alabama? Ad infinitum. And as if the education weren't poor enough for the general student bodies of those schools, the "football factory"-type schools typically couldn't give a censored less what their kids are doing in the classroom...they'll stretch their admissions criteria as far as the NCAA will let them to get kids who should be ineligible into school, and then once the kids are there they steer them into bullcensored classes in bullcensored majors so they have maximum time available for the field/training room. Look at Morris Claiborne's Wonderlic score. Look at all the former NFL stars like Warren Sapp who go broke after a few years of retirement because have never been taught anything about money management. Yeah...sweet "education" these guys are getting.

    Remove your maize and blue blinders, Ohio State is not a crappy academic school.

    If you honestly think that schools like Alabama or LSU or other football powers are crappy academic schools, then I don't know what to tell you.

    And who fault's is it that the athletes don't learn anything? Do you want to spoon feed these athletes and hold their hand their entire life?

    And once again (I going to put it in bold and caps lock this time since you don't understand) NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO ATTEND COLLEGE, THIS IS THEIR OWN CHOICE. IF THEY DON'T LIKE HOW THE COLLEGES ARE TREATING THEM, THEY CAN CHOOSE TO PURSUE A DIFFERENT CAREER OR JOIN A SEMI PRO TEAM

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    Go Blue and Go Titans!

    CorchBlue

  • blue2468 said...

    1) You are forgetting the many other scholarship sports that Michigan has also to provide for, that would be around 300 or so athletes on scholarships, so yes, that is costing the schools money. You are delusional if you think paying all those scholarships does not have any effect on the budget, why do you think so many schools lack the funds to even support and sustain a football program?

    The University of Michigan athletic program turned a $27M profit, even after (not actually) paying for all those scholarships.

    bkp1883

  • bkp1883 said...

    The University of Michigan athletic program turned a $27M profit, even after (not actually) paying for all those scholarships.


    How many other schools turned a profit from their Athletic Program?

    Also, they paid for the scholarships.... Every cent for every student on scholarship. In state or out of state costs.... the athletic department paid for every last dime.

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    theyellowdart

  • Quaddad said...

    I guess the fab five years must have slipped your minds.

    Not even relatively comparable. Back then college students names were on a Jersey therefore they should of been getting paid. Plus the coaches weren't hiding stuff, some rich guy from Detroit who knew the kids invested in them based on their future NBA success.

    MichaelHardenII

  • blue2468 said...

    1) You are forgetting the many other scholarship sports that Michigan has also to provide for, that would be around 300 or so athletes on scholarships, so yes, that is costing the schools money. You are delusional if you think paying all those scholarships does not have any effect on the budget, why do you think so many schools lack the funds to even support and sustain a football program?

    2) Not sure of the point of this?

    3) They profit from it majorly, both during and after their careers. During their careers, they are getting their name out to the world and millions of people know their names, you don't think that is a benefit at all? After their careers are done (and degree in hand), you don't think companies are going to lavish over them? Why do you think so many go into sales positions?

    4) Regardless of how much money is involved, it's still a game.

    5) They may or may not be exploited, but they are definitely not being under-compensated. I would kill for a chance to attend a school like Michigan for free and all I have to do is play a game that I love.

    1) So...your big argument for why football players can't be paid is that water polo and lacrosse players are more deserving of revenue the football guys are generating than the football players are? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    2) The point is that athletic scholarships are a necessary condition for big-time college athletics. Universities don't get props for handing them out as if its some kind of generosity.

    3) Millions of people know who Denard Robinson is. You think millions of people know who Patrick Omameh is? Hell, David Molk won the Rimington Trophy...think millions of people know who he is? A college program is lucky if it has more than 2 or 3 guys anyone beyond the school's passionate fanbase has any idea about in a given year. Two or three guys out of 85 scholarship players. Huuuuuuuge publicity there lol. Your argument is almost literally the same as "It's cool for college players not to be paid because they'll get rich in the NFL anyhow."

    4) I suppose the NFL/NBA/MLB shouldn't have to pay their players then, either. It's just a game.

    5) Just because compensation is desirable doesn't mean its not under-compensatory. Anyone would love to be paid a million dollars a year to be the head coach at Michigan...but if the "natural" free-market value of Brady Hoke's salary is 3 million and he were only being paid one million because all the schools are colluding to keep coaching salaries down, then he'd be under-compensated.

    inuyesta

  • blue2468 said...

    Remove your maize and blue blinders, Ohio State is not a crappy academic school.

    If you honestly think that schools like Alabama or LSU or other football powers are crappy academic schools, then I don't know what to tell you.

    And who fault's is it that the athletes don't learn anything? Do you want to spoon feed these athletes and hold their hand their entire life?

    And once again (I going to put it in bold and caps lock this time since you don't understand) NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO ATTEND COLLEGE, THIS IS THEIR OWN CHOICE. IF THEY DON'T LIKE HOW THE COLLEGES ARE TREATING THEM, THEY CAN CHOOSE TO PURSUE A DIFFERENT CAREER OR JOIN A SEMI PRO TEAM

    US News and World Report ranks:

    Ohio State - 55th
    Alabama - 79th
    LSU - 128th

    I stand by what I said.

    And again, what the NCAA does would be illegal in any other industry. You can say whatever you want about "NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO ATTEND COLLEGE" but you could use that same argument about any other industry...no one is "forced" to work in manufacturing, but it would still be wrong if all the factory owners got together and made an agreement not to pay any workers more than $3/hour.

    inuyesta

  • MichaelHardenII said...

    Not even relatively comparable. Back then college students names were on a Jersey therefore they should of been getting paid.

    This seems like a silly distinction. If I go to the M Den and buy a #16 Michigan football jersey, I (and everyone who sees me wear it) knows that's a Denard Robinson jersey. The merits and logistics of paying college football/basketball players generally can be debated, but I can't think of a single valid reason Denard Robinson shouldn't get a cut of all those #16 unis.

    inuyesta

  • bkp1883 said...

    The University of Michigan athletic program turned a $27M profit, even after (not actually) paying for all those scholarships.

    People don't understand the value of that free ride, for college baseball, if I were to get a scholarship offer, it most likely wouldn't be for a free ride and I would have to pay most of my way. That free ride saves them so much, for every Denard that drives revenue, you have a Brandon Moore or a player like him, that doesn't drive revenue up. How would you decide who gets paid what? There are so many tricky variables with paying players that it gets tough. It's been the same way for over a century, just because now it drives more money, doesn't necessarily mean it should change.

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    Go Blue & Gig Em'!

    TAMUWolverine ●

  • inuyesta said...

    Nice shifting goal posts. Your original argument was that players are compensated by getting "a free education from one of the top schools in the country"

    Also, "most of those crappier academic schools are not good football programs as well"...really? Ohio State is something other than a crappy academic school? LSU? Alabama? Ad infinitum. And as if the education weren't poor enough for the general student bodies of those schools, the "football factory"-type schools typically couldn't give a censored less what their kids are doing in the classroom...they'll stretch their admissions criteria as far as the NCAA will let them to get kids who should be ineligible into school, and then once the kids are there they steer them into bullcensored classes in bullcensored majors so they have maximum time available for the field/training room. Look at Morris Claiborne's Wonderlic score. Look at all the former NFL stars like Warren Sapp who go broke after a few years of retirement because have never been taught anything about money management. Yeah...sweet "education" these guys are getting.

    So the solution is to pay the athletes. I really get a kick out of most Americans these days, once a problem has been identified the obvious solution is money. How is paying the athletes going to fix the NCAA? The problem is the NCAA, it is absolutely necessary to fix this piece of crap association before anymore money attached to responsibility is handed out. How about they have an NCAA employee at every FBS institution for oversight, documentation and reviews. This employee is assigned an institution for no longer than three years at which time they could be reassigned a different institution or move on in their lives or up in the association. This job could be a great start for student athletes around the country who are not fortunate enough to make a living playing athletics. From their the association would be tiered appropriately with constant rotation in order to achieve more consistency towards infractions and needs of an FBS player.

    Amazinglyblue78

  • I’m sure I will be flamed for this, but IDC its JMO. To answer OP’s question yes I would. It would definitely feel better if we did it the right way and still won, but at the end of the day all I care about is winning.

    A question for some of you guys who say that you wouldn’t, do you believe that this program would be “clean” right now if we would have hired Les? And if not how would you have felt about his success, if he was hired and had the same success here that he has had at LSU?

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    CWEBB

  • And just to kind of give an example of why this is about player labor rights and representation:

    The term "student-athlete" came into widespread use in the 1950s, when the NCAA started using it to describe player status. They started using the term because a woman whose husband was killed while playing football for a university in Colorado was suing for worker's comp. They used it because, according to the court case:

    “It is significant that the college did not receive a direct benefit from the activities, since the college was not in the football business and received no benefit from the field of recreation. In fact, the state conducted institution, supported by taxpayers, could not as a matter of business enter into the maintenance of a football team for the purpose of making a profit directly or indirectly out of the taxpayers’ money.”

    The NCAA has been fighting (and spending miilions of dollars) for decades to strip players of any sort of consideration or say in the distribution of the exponentially growing profits.

    As inuyesta has pointed out, any private business who operated the way the NCAA has operated would have broken the law and been hit with millions in lost lawsuits. Universities use their public status and legal privilege to exploit players.

    bkp1883

  • Amazinglyblue78 said...

    So the solution is to pay the athletes. I really get a kick out of most Americans these days, once a problem has been identified the obvious solution is money. How is paying the athletes going to fix the NCAA? The problem is the NCAA, it is absolutely necessary to fix this piece of crap association before anymore money attached to responsibility is handed out. How about they have an NCAA employee at every FBS institution for oversight, documentation and reviews. This employee is assigned an institution for no longer than three years at which time they could be reassigned a different institution or move on in their lives or up in the association. This job could be a great start for student athletes around the country who are not fortunate enough to make a living playing athletics. From their the association would be tiered appropriately with constant rotation in order to achieve more consistency towards infractions and needs of an FBS player.

    I'm not proposing paying players as a solution to poor education among college football players, I'm proposing paying players as a way to equitably compensate them for their labor.

    And given that the primary purpose of the NCAA seems to be enforcing its amateurism rules, once we do away with amateurism, there won't be a big need for it.

    inuyesta

  • TAMUWolverine said...

    People don't understand the value of that free ride, for college baseball, if I were to get a scholarship offer, it most likely wouldn't be for a free ride and I would have to pay most of my way. That free ride saves them so much, for every Denard that drives revenue, you have a Brandon Moore or a player like him, that doesn't drive revenue up. How would you decide who gets paid what? There are so many tricky variables with paying players that it gets tough. It's been the same way for over a century, just because now it drives more money, doesn't necessarily mean it should change.

    The problem is not that playing college football is worse for the players than not playing. The problem is that the NCAA has been legally exploiting the players and the nonsense that they are all "amateurs" to cut them out of what is a very lucrative business.

    Peyton Manning could have been forced to stay with the Colts for $500,000 a year. We would all love to be in that position, and it is likely that Manning wouldn't be able to find a better deal outside of football. That doesn't mean it would be fair.

    bkp1883

  • Amazinglyblue78 said...

    I really get a kick out of most Americans these days, once a problem has been identified the obvious solution is money.

    What are you going on about here? The money is already there, and we are merely arguing that the players should be apportioned a much larger portion of the profits.

    bkp1883

  • bkp1883 said...

    Seems rather selfish to deprive these college kids of compensation for the millions in revenue they generate because you value competitive parity. Nobody is forgetting about the advantages, its just not enough for me to think that the exploitation of players is somehow acceptable.

    Rules are rules. If you don't like them, change the system. Don't cheat to have an advantage over your competitors.

    buttesnake ●

  • buckUBlue said...

    Had you guys paid every player used against us during the Cooper era, it still would not have eased the pain of any of those horrible losses you hung on us. And butte, you are typically a good poster, but you are fos if you expect me to believe that because "we cheated" it makes the past decade any less painful to you. As for your "beyond reproach" standards, the Fab Five was way worse than Tresselgate and never once in my life did I cry "Michigan cheated" even after you knocked us out of the Elite 8 that year. I realize the dynamics of the rivalry will never allow us to agree but the Holier than thou card is weak.

    LOL. You sure jumped to a bunch of conclusions from my post. Your program is dirty. Deal with it.

    attachment

    buttesnake ●

  • vcmarsh1 said...

    I've seen this debated on other boards, but not yet here. I went back a few pages and didn't see anything but didn't even know how to start searching the whole forum.

    In an argument on Facebook with an osu fan now. He says:

    " I have 0 problem with college athletes selling their own merchandise or awards they earned for money, tattoos, or whatever else they want. That's wrong because the ncaa says so? They are "student athletes"? The ncaa is a non-profit organization yet makes billions of dollars off television contracts? They are a walking contradiction and have 0 credibility. So yes, I have absolutely no problem with what went down. Had Tressel been upfront about it, the players would have been suspended and that would have been the end if it. That is why the program got in trouble. The ncaa is a sham. At any rate, we have to sit out a bowl game this year but reload the roster. Works for me. Good luck rest of the conference in 2013 and beyond."

    Followed with: "Oh, and I'm pretty sure Auburn fan had no problem buying a national championship, SEC fan playing with rosters full of kids who got into school because the admissions department bends the rules, and USC fan for sitting out 2 years and now being preseason #1."

    First of all, it's disgusting that a fan would happily compare his program to the 2010 Auburn Tigers.

    But before all of this, he said that he'll happily take a 1 year bowl ban and slight sanctions in exchange for the run osu has had going back to 2002.

    So I ask, would you take several B1G Championships, a national title, and an 8-1 record against osu in exchange for a 1 year bowl ban at some point and a reduction in scholarships?

    So what is the TOSU way?

    Quaddad

  • Interesting views

    This post was edited by vcmarsh1 on 4/17/2012 at 5:08 PM

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    vcmarsh1

  • CMXI said...

    Hell no. A man has two things in this world, his word and his balls, and he shouldn't break either of them for anyone.

    Dude!...I give you all the upvotes I have for the day for this quote alone, I could not agree more!

    Wingman1817

  • Wingman1817 said...

    Dude!...I give you all the upvotes I have for the day for this quote alone, I could not agree more!

    +1 never compromise yourself and your integrity to get ahead.

    zwolverine5555

  • buttesnake said...

    Look, you're forgetting that this boils down to recruiting advantages which equal wins down the line. Kids know you can get paid at osu, so they decide to commit there. They sell their stuff, Tressel covers it up, and the cycle continues. It's cheating, plain and simple.

    you are so full of it. delete my post if you want but what happened at TOSU has nothing to do with paying recruits or that they know they will be paid. you must be a psu fan as well. they still think the sandusky thing didnt happen.

    Quaddad

  • Quaddad said...

    you are so full of it. delete my post if you want but what happened at TOSU has nothing to do with paying recruits or that they know they will be paid. you must be a psu fan as well. they still think the sandusky thing didnt happen.

    attachment

    buttesnake ●

  • Quaddad said...

    you are so full of it. delete my post if you want but what happened at TOSU has nothing to do with paying recruits or that they know they will be paid. you must be a psu fan as well. they still think the sandusky thing didnt happen.

    Do you not see the hypocrisy in your post?

    buttesnake ●

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