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um_king said...
You originally said "he has had so many chances and hasnt really shown anything"
He was a RS FR last year behind Fitz an incumbent starter and returning 1,000 yard rusher, we had Denard (another returning 1,000 yard rusher) and he was behind the Vince and Rawls on the depth chart. He has had what, under 20 career carries and was a RS FR last year. How exactly is that "had so many chances"? He had a number of games where he got 2 or 3 carries or less, the games you mentioned late in the season where he didn't do much (but a small sample size in terms of carries), likewise he had games where he had 2 or 3 carries or less and done well (but again, small sample size). The one game where he did get a good number of carries, he did very well running the ball and despite Illinois not being great, they still are a conference opponent (its not like he had those #'s against a crappy FCS opponent or something). Were you expecting him to be a superstar as a RS FR or something?
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CMXI said...
When I said "chances," I wasn't merely referring to carries. When he came on campus as a highly recruited freshman, Michigan was searching for a RB. While we eventually settled on Fitz, the competition was wide open right when he hit campus. He then had a year to establish himself as the heir-apparent to Vincent Smith. Everyone knew that he wasn't going to be the bellcow (given the style of RB Hoke was looking for) but he had time to work himself into consideration as, at the very least, the backup.
He then had another chance this year as Fitz and Rawls played poorly. I think we can all agree that Fitz and Rawls need the OL to open big holes for them to be successful, but Hayes is a smaller and shiftier back than either of them, so he had an opportunity to step in take some carries. Then, when Fitz went down in the OSU game, he had a month to step up and demonstrate his effectiveness in time for the bowl game, but instead, all we heard about was how well Drake Johnson played.
Finally, he had an opportunity this offseason to step up and take over Vincent Smith's role as a 3DRB/slot WR. Instead, Norfleet gets the nod.
By my count, that's at least 4 major opportunities that he had to earn playing time. He's been in the program for 2 years, and he's repeatedly getting passed over for younger players. How many chances do you want to give him? Look at the best RB programs - mid 2000s USC, Bama today: you get 1, maybe 2 real chances to prove your worth as a RB and work your way into the rotation. If you can't perform, you're done. There's too much talent above and below you to justify more chances.
Maybe I'm being cruel about it, but if he hasn't done enough to justify seeing the field yet, I'm not very confident that he'll be able to pick it up in the future, especially with the quality of the RBs we're bringing in behind him.
Amazinglyblue78
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CMXI said...
When I said "chances," I wasn't merely referring to carries. When he came on campus as a highly recruited freshman, Michigan was searching for a RB. While we eventually settled on Fitz, the competition was wide open right when he hit campus. He then had a year to establish himself as the heir-apparent to Vincent Smith. Everyone knew that he wasn't going to be the bellcow (given the style of RB Hoke was looking for) but he had time to work himself into consideration as, at the very least, the backup.
He then had another chance this year as Fitz and Rawls played poorly. I think we can all agree that Fitz and Rawls need the OL to open big holes for them to be successful, but Hayes is a smaller and shiftier back than either of them, so he had an opportunity to step in take some carries. Then, when Fitz went down in the OSU game, he had a month to step up and demonstrate his effectiveness in time for the bowl game, but instead, all we heard about was how well Drake Johnson played.
Finally, he had an opportunity this offseason to step up and take over Vincent Smith's role as a 3DRB/slot WR. Instead, Norfleet gets the nod.
By my count, that's at least 4 major opportunities that he had to earn playing time. He's been in the program for 2 years, and he's repeatedly getting passed over for younger players. How many chances do you want to give him? Look at the best RB programs - mid 2000s USC, Bama today: you get 1, maybe 2 real chances to prove your worth as a RB and work your way into the rotation. If you can't perform, you're done. There's too much talent above and below you to justify more chances.
Maybe I'm being cruel about it, but if he hasn't done enough to justify seeing the field yet, I'm not very confident that he'll be able to pick it up in the future, especially with the quality of the RBs we're bringing in behind him.
I could be wrong but we don't really know if Norfleet is getting the nod over Hayes or not. That is all hear say right now. Do I think Norfleet will take it from him? very good chance. I look forward to seeing how Hayes, Norfleet and Drake all have progressed from last year.
Personally Im not a fan of Rawls and never have been. All this talk of him being the "next" big time back for Michigan was crap imo. I think his ship has sailed more then Hayes has. With Green, DeVeon and Wyatt coming in Rawls will get barred. At least Hayes has some versatility.
Just my opinion though boys!
LEXwolverine1 ●
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LEXwolverine1 said...
I could be wrong but we don't really know if Norfleet is getting the nod over Hayes or not. That is all hear say right now. Do I think Norfleet will take it from him? very good chance. I look forward to seeing how Hayes, Norfleet and Drake all have progressed from last year.
Personally Im not a fan of Rawls and never have been. All this talk of him being the "next" big time back for Michigan was crap imo. I think his ship has sailed more then Hayes has. With Green, DeVeon and Wyatt coming in Rawls will get barred. At least Hayes has some versatility.
Just my opinion though boys!
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CMXI said...
Ah, ok, I was under the impression that Norfleet is getting the nod. Either way, doesn't change the fact that Hayes has had chances, but I'm with you, I think Norfleet will take it.
I also agree that Rawls is getting more squeezed out than Hayes. Smith and Green are just better versions of the RB we wanted Rawls to be. While yes, it remains to be seen what they'll do for us at the college level, it's no secret that Rawls couldn't get it done this year and that we're looking for many new RBs for his role.
I think the guy who'll emerge in spring practice is Drake Johnson, and I'm interested to see what happens and how he looks in the spring game.
This post was edited by Amazinglyblue78 on 2/20/2013 at 8:53 PM
Amazinglyblue78
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Amazinglyblue78 said...
Big and really fast. I'm with you can't wait to see if he can crack the line-up and get some playing time.
Didn't he set the Michigan state rushing mark for a season?
Drake Johnson Profile - MGOBLUE.COM - University of Michigan Official Athletic Site
The University of Michigan Official Athletic Site, partner of CBS College Sports Networks, Inc. The most comprehensive coverage of Michigan Athletics on the web.
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Amazinglyblue78
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CMXI said...
When I said "chances," I wasn't merely referring to carries. When he came on campus as a highly recruited freshman, Michigan was searching for a RB. While we eventually settled on Fitz, the competition was wide open right when he hit campus. He then had a year to establish himself as the heir-apparent to Vincent Smith. Everyone knew that he wasn't going to be the bellcow (given the style of RB Hoke was looking for) but he had time to work himself into consideration as, at the very least, the backup.
He then had another chance this year as Fitz and Rawls played poorly. I think we can all agree that Fitz and Rawls need the OL to open big holes for them to be successful, but Hayes is a smaller and shiftier back than either of them, so he had an opportunity to step in take some carries. Then, when Fitz went down in the OSU game, he had a month to step up and demonstrate his effectiveness in time for the bowl game, but instead, all we heard about was how well Drake Johnson played.
Finally, he had an opportunity this offseason to step up and take over Vincent Smith's role as a 3DRB/slot WR. Instead, Norfleet gets the nod.
By my count, that's at least 4 major opportunities that he had to earn playing time. He's been in the program for 2 years, and he's repeatedly getting passed over for younger players. How many chances do you want to give him? Look at the best RB programs - mid 2000s USC, Bama today: you get 1, maybe 2 real chances to prove your worth as a RB and work your way into the rotation. If you can't perform, you're done. There's too much talent above and below you to justify more chances.
Maybe I'm being cruel about it, but if he hasn't done enough to justify seeing the field yet, I'm not very confident that he'll be able to pick it up in the future, especially with the quality of the RBs we're bringing in behind him.
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um_king said...
You said it yourself, it was highly unlikely that Hayes was going to be the every-down, pound it for 20 carry a game guy in the new offense, whereas Fitz and Rawls both fit that mold. It is/was unrealistic for you to expect that of him, especially as a RS FR when that really isnt his game at the moment. He (or anyone else) was never going to pass Vince as the 3rd down back this year because Vince was a great pass pro guy.
Why are you acting like this offseason is over? We haven't even had spring practice start, so I have no clue where you are getting him having a chance to take oveer for Vince and Norfleet for sure passing him.
He hasn't been passed by Norfleet or Johnson yet, and Rawls and Fitz are either his class or above. Granted I (along with everyone) predict Green, at a minimum, will pass him up when he arrives.
How many chances do I want to give him? Not about me, but he is about to be a RS SO, he has 3 more years to make a good impact. Not all freshman come in immediately and play.
Cruel might not be the right word, but I certainly think you are overreacting considering spring practices haven't even started. If this was fall camp, or even post-spring ball and he for sure had been passed by Johnson and/or Norfleet then I would say you might have a point, but even then he still has plenty of time to make an impact.
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pappy121 said...
I'd have to think for a couple of the RB's that their time to make an impact is this year. If they can not get it done this year they probably will not get another chance. Smith and Green might very well pass Hayes and Rawls this year. I said before though that last year is not a very good indication of how good Hayes and Rawls are. I'm not going to write either of those two off but the 2013 class has some studs coming in. The 2014 recruits might be even better.
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LEXwolverine1 said...
I could be wrong but we don't really know if Norfleet is getting the nod over Hayes or not. That is all hear say right now. Do I think Norfleet will take it from him? very good chance. I look forward to seeing how Hayes, Norfleet and Drake all have progressed from last year.
Personally Im not a fan of Rawls and never have been. All this talk of him being the "next" big time back for Michigan was crap imo. I think his ship has sailed more then Hayes has. With Green, DeVeon and Wyatt coming in Rawls will get barred. At least Hayes has some versatility.
Just my opinion though boys!
MichaelHardenII ●
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CMXI said...
I'm not surprised, he'll take over Vincent Smith's little role in the offense (although I can only hope that he works on his pass-blocking to get to a level close to Smith). The whole shift to defense was just because we were dangerously low on available CBs for the bowl game.
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Norfleet Back to Offense