Online Now 146

Wolverine247 Board

The place for discussion on the Michigan Wolverines

Online now 129
Record: 7264 (3/12/2012)


Michigan vs. Purdue Open Thread

  • I haven't been watching many games live and always DVR them. I find it much better for my nerves knowing the outcome when I watch. Anyway, I've learned to record the show after as well because many of the more recent games have not finished within the scheduled time frame.

  • I don't think it's too much to assume that in 2-3 years Michigan is going to be a much older and more experienced roster. Morgan will be gone and maybe McGary as well, but Horford and Bielfeldt will surely be around and there's probably a good chance Donnal will be as well. It's also unlikely LeVert, Spike, or Stauskas will leave early. It's safe to assume that GR3, Hardaway, and Burke will all be gone and some of the 2013 class as well, but that still leaves Michigan with a lot of experienced players.

    Sure, guys could transfer or leave early, but there's no way that Michigan will have as young of an active roster in 2-3 years as it does now. Even just looking at current role players and assuming everybody else leaves by 2014, it still gives the team about 6 guys who are second year players or above and all have the ability to play significant minutes. Right now, Michigan has 4 players who have been here at least a year in its top 9 players according to minutes. Even if you assume pretty much everybody leaves early, that should still leave the Wolverines in better or about the same shape in 2-3 years.

    Basketball Analyst For BTPowerhouse & Wolverine 247 - Follow me on Twitter:

  • Just saying you never know.

    Nobody saw Smotrycz or Brundidge transferring....or Morris leaving early...or Burke being a underclassman draft entry out of HS.

    signature image signature image
  • That is true. Hopefully attrition slows down in the next few years and not because Michigan's players aren't good enough to go pro.

    Basketball Analyst For BTPowerhouse & Wolverine 247 - Follow me on Twitter:

  • There's no contradiction at all.

    It's pretty obvious Burke often decides that *he* needs to win the game on his own, sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. He's clearly the most talented player on the team and a first round NBA pick but it's pretty obvious that we're relying on him individually making the difference far too much and that's not *only* by design because Burke will force that himself. When MSU had Burke cooped up at Breslin, Michigan may as well not have shown up, we had nothin, they could have beaten us by 50. The team is disjointed, lacking structure and relying on freelancing efforts far too often and clearly that isn't how John Beilein envisions the team to play or do you think it is?

    And while you play to win, wins don't exist in a vacuum. Even in wins you show weaknesses, you show problems, just like losing teams can show potential for improvement in a loss. You gotta look at the performance, not just the result. No coach, no serious analyst will look at the score and go "team won, case closed". You try to learn something about a team in every game, win or loss, because a winning team can show worrisome tendencies that can be at the root of future defeats.

    And "enjoy these games", what, did you actually watch the game? This was a bottom feeder and we made Terone Johnson look like Lebron James. Nobody who actually watched the whole game "enjoyed" it, most of us were glad we got out of there with a win. The headlines aren't lying when they say "Michigan survived". Survival isn't something you enjoy in a routine situation, it's the bare fricking minimum. There's levels of performance I expect and need to see in order to "enjoy" a game. You expect to beat Purdue and fairly comfortably so, Indiana, OSU and MSU all won rather comfortably at Purdue.

    And that brings me to the next point - yes, road games are difficult in college hoops and a number of highly ranked teams have had some tough road losses. But that doesn't change the reality that Michigan hasn't won a road game vs. any opponent with a better than .500 conference record, while losing at Penn State and struggling at Purdue. Michigan's road struggles go beyond the typical for a team that thinks "Sweet Sixteen or bust". There's no marquee road win, only a few marquee road losses. Penn State is a terrible team, MSU is nowhere near as good as we made them look that night at Breslin. And to bring it back to last night - Purdue is mediocre at best and they had their best offensive night in conference play last night. They didn't even have to be lights out or anything, we just gave it to them. Watch the game and then "enjoy" it for fuck's sake.

  • 2-3 years? How about next year? Every single FR (and there are five of them) will be a SO with significant game experience. That will make a huge difference right there.

  • I was just going to say this; "veteran experience" at the big time programs in college basketball has become a soph/junior thing, not a senior thing.


  • My problem with this sort of analysis is that nothing short of some mythical perfect team will ever measure up. MSU has just lost three games in a row (one at home) and is facing a very difficult fourth opponent tonight. IU just got manhandled at home on senior night by a team they had no trouble with just a few weeks earlier. And that is after inexplicably dropping a game to Minnesota a week ago. Miami lost at home last night to GT for Christ's sake. We are far from a perfect team, but so is everyone else. College basketball in a big six conference is a grind. You play 30 games (generally 2-3 times per week) just so you can turn around and play back to back brutal tournaments at the end of the season. No team emerges without some dog performances and we are no different than anyone else. Well, except that we are by far the youngest team in the toughest conference in the country. Context matters. And when looked at in context, we are having one of the best seasons in our 100+ year history.

    This post was edited by MrWoodson 13 months ago

  • While listening to Sam and Ira on the way to work this morning, I couldn't stomach their fluffy defense of our performance last night, particularly regarding Stauskas. But now, after reading Skeletor's opinions, maybe they were right.

    Jesus, the game wasn't pretty but it wasn't THAT bad.

    signature image signature image signature image


  • Just three quick thoughts regarding this. First, you do realize that Purdue just handled Wisconsin on the road, right? Unless you think Wisconsin is weak at home (which defies a lot of info), you can't act like Purdue is a garbage team. They have improved significantly since the start of the year. They aren't one of the top teams in the conference surely, but they are certainly at least formidable at home.

    Second, using that .500 conference record may not be the best tool to evaluate what is a "good" road win for the Wolverines. Minnesota is below .500 in conference play, but they are also very, very good at home. They beat IU and MSU already at home and virtually all their conference losses have come on the road this year. I just think this is important to look at when you are evaluating whether a win on the road is a "good" one.

    Finally, why do fans have this idea that road games are more important than home games? They are equally valued and the NCAA Tournament is played in neither of these environments. Michigan is not great on the road without a doubt, but they can still win the Big Ten Championship on Sunday. It's pretty hard to beat down a team this badly when they are just one win away from the conference title in the toughest conference in basketball. Who cares if you win on the road at home, as long as it's still enough.

    Basketball Analyst For BTPowerhouse & Wolverine 247 - Follow me on Twitter:

  • I agree with you on everything but road wins being valued the same as home wins.

    Having a quality road win could be the difference between two teams on the bubble, which luckily we don't have to worry about this year.

    signature image signature image
  • You can say that other teams are just as flawed, sure, and obviously quite a few teams are flawed. It's been widely observed, that there is a lack of true quality teams this year. You can say it's a good season, sure it is, it beats being 19-11 and going to the NIT. Those are legitimate points. Neither point however changes the observation that last night was a pretty questionable performance for vast stretches, coming a week after an even more questionable road performance vs inferior opposition.

    Those things stand on their own terms, for us it's pretty irrelevant how Miami played or how MSU looked vs OSU. I am not talking about them, am I? I am talking about Michigan basketball and I am talking about Turene Johnson marching into the lane like it's a walk in the park and Michigan players are old ladies waving and saying a friendly hello.

    You can say "well we're a 3rd tier program and in comparison to our usually rather mediocre teams, this is a pretty good one" and maybe that's exactly the way it is. But then that's not the majority view here is it? And that doesn't mean we can't ask for more, does it?

    The way I understand it, this team has been widely considered a top ten team, a possible contender for a deep run. Well, when I turn on the TV and see us face a team that's worse than any team we would play in the tournament, I am going to get a bit annoyed seeing us struggle like we did defensively and at times offensively as well. I would find it rather annoying to see Stauskas' inability to defend or Hardaway's token jump shots. Yes, yes, perspective and nobody is saying the team is doomed, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend to be happy with the performance or like some guys who come in 3 minutes after the final whistle and act like it's all good as if they hadn't actually watched the game (which some probably didn't actually).

    This post was edited by UMSkeletor 13 months ago

  • We played well the first 10 min. We then played like crap for the next 20 minutes. And we played very well the last 10 minutes. It wasn't a masterpiece by any stretch, but it counts as a road W. FWIW we played much better @ Wisconsin (even without Jordan Morgan) and came away with a road L. People need to learn to accept both.

  • I share your frustrations, to a certain degree. But come down off the ledge.

    This is widely considered a Top 10 team because there doesn't appear to be 9 other teams that are better, at least not over the course of 30 games.

    Purdue is NOT worse than any team we'll face in the tourney. Not by a long shot.

    I was critical of Stauskas' defense too, but Sam and Ira brought up a good point: what did his man score last night? (Also remember he is playing with a significant black eye after taking a sharp elbow that drew lots of blood).

    It just appears that you're very bitter right now. IF the team falters in the tourney, I'm sure you'll be the second one here saying "I told you so" (right after CopeMoney on tBB). It may not be as good as some people portray it, but it's certainly not as bad as you are.

    signature image signature image signature image


  • It's not about how many your guy scores. The issue that Stauskas has on defense, is that he can't stop penetration into the paint. Even if his man doesn't score, it breaks down the integrity of the defense, and leaves someone open for a pass, or on a missed shot creates more of an opportunity for an offensive rebound.

    That stretch when Stauskas and Vogrich were on the floor together was brutal to watch because of this.

    That being said, I agree that Skeletor is over the top with the negativity, but he's entitled to feel that way.

    signature image signature image
  • I agree with this, but remember Stauskas is a true freshman (and not a top 25 ranked one). If he had gone to any of the other basketball powerhouses (Duke, IU, UNC, Louisville, UF, KU, MSU, OSU) he would barely see the floor as a freshman. He certainly wouldn't be a starter. His defense will improve. Give him time to develop.

    This post was edited by MrWoodson 13 months ago

  • does anyone know if brundidge has resurfaced?

    signature image
  • I am being more negative in what I post than what I feel because it is in response to people going OTT in their cheerleading, it's a counter-weight.

    My actual view is probably that held by the majority of observers, this is a team with tremendous talent and a chance to do some damage in the NCAAs but a team that faces some serious question marks on defense, on rebounding and in terms of over-reliance on Trey Burke which could lead to an early exit if the team doesn't produce its best basketball of the year come tourney time.

  • I don't get this. I haven't really seen any people overly positive. I see a lot of people like myself and MrWoodson who don't panic or get overly concerned about one specific game in a 30 game season. We understand that there will be bumps in the road along the way but still see that this team has the potential to win the Big Ten regular season, Conference tourney and make a deep run. Of course it's possible Michigan goes out in the second game of the tourney but i don't see a loss on the road to Penn State as evidence that it will happen.

    signature image signature image signature image