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Assuming Isaac never plays with physicality, Smith is the better back for us. He's going to be a great back in college.
However, Isaac can learn to run with more physicality, and on top of that he's a mismatch nightmare because of his speed and hands. With Smith we get a solid back who's going to produce but never go the distance.
The major difference here is that Smith can't add his missing dimension to his game. Isaac can. I'll take Isaac, but if we land Smith you won't here me complain.
Bryce Brown was ranked the #1 RB on Scout and Rivals in the class of 2009. Even over Trent Richardson. Only ESPN ranked Trent Richardson as the #1 RB with Brown as the #2 RB.
Needless to say, that didn't turn out like many thought.
If Smith was half a step or a full step faster AND had consistently demonstrated cutback ability, he'd be ranked #1 RB in the nation imo.
If you actually watch Richardson's highlight tape, you'd notice the similarities in running style with Smith.
Caveat: I'm not saying that DeVeon Smith will be Trent Richardson 2.0. I am, however, saying that it's clear what type of RB Brady Hoke and Al Borges prefer.
Isaac is a finesse RB. Smith is raw power.
* * * N E O . R E T R O * * *
Bad example. Sure Bryce Brown didn't pan out, but it wasn't for a lack of talent. My brother works with the K-State football team and always talked about how Bryce Brown was by far the best player on the team but he had zero work ethic and was a troubled guy. His off the field problems kept him from reaching his potential, not his talent. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see him make an NFL squad with everything I've been told.
I'm not saying DeVeon Smith won't be a great college RB. It's like comparing Adrian Peterson with Ray Rice in the NFL. Ray Rice is a great NFL RB but Adrian Peterson is far and away better. I just think Ty Issac is clearly better, that's all. Would be awesome to have both guys on the team and that's what I hope happens.
To attribute Brown's lack of success to merely a nonexistent work ethic is a gross oversimplification imo. There were a few people who suggested that Brown's hype was inflated because he faced weak competition.
And Peterson is not "far and away" better than Ray Rice. I think you're relying too much on fantasy football stats.
I'm only talking about talent here and my point was Bryce Brown has a lot of it. He was the MVP of the Army All-American game. I was told by my brother that in practice he was the best player on K-State's football team, a team that finished in the top 15 in the nation last season. And even though he hasn't played in a real game since he was at Tennessee two years ago, it's likely he'll at the very least be signed as an undrafted FA in the NFL. The talent is obviously still there and if not for off the field issues he would have started every game last season at K-State.
And talent wise I don't think there is a more complete RB in the NFL than Adrian Peterson. He has size, runs with power, and has real breakaway speed. Ray Rice is good but he's a little undersized and lacks elite speed. IMO
Isaac is already listed as 215lbs and most likely will be heavier and stronger by the time he becomes the feature back in college. If he checks in as a 235 tailback, that's a load to tackle. But yeah, it would've made me feel better if he ran more physically than he does in his highlights.
I think it's a combination of speed and power and balance and footwork, and of course vision. It's not just one of those. No matter how powerful you are, you aren't going to break a square tackle by a DT by power alone. You don't really remember Marshall Faulk as a tackle breaker but he's like the 60th best player of all-time. (Of course I'm not saying Isaac=Faulk) Guess it boils down to effectiveness and fit to an offense, and maybe personal preference to a lesser degree.
This is a fascinating debate, and I agree with most that ideally you'd like to have both.
I think you're prioritizing talent over production.
Teams, organizations, coaches value results. They place a premium on it. Unused talent does them little good.
For all of Brown's talent, he has little to show for. Hence, he'll be an *undrafted* free agent like you said. The emphasis on undrafted.
I think it's disingenuous of you to highlight Peterson's strengths but emphasize Rice's perceived weaknesses.
For instance, you say that Peterson runs with power. And I agree. But so does Rice.
You mention that Rice is undersized. I disagree. I think Rice is compact which allows him to be effective.
On the flip side, you didn't mention that Peterson has fumble issues. Rice, by comparison, is much better at holding onto the ball.
Lastly, Peterson's production is just a few shades higher than Rice's production. Moreover, Rice has occasionally been underutilized which even led to a divided locker room in Baltimore. Peterson, on the other hand, has been the go to player of the Vikings offense.
The point of this whole conversation is talent. The question always was who was the better prospect between Smith and Issac. The only real barometer to measure each player is by talent. I said Issac was more talented and you then compared him to Bryce Brown who is a very talented player who's lack of work ethic and other issues caused him to never live up to expectations. As far as we know, Ty Issac has none of those issues and is a very talented RB. My only point was that comparing the two is wrong. Talent wise they are very similar players, but as far as we know Issac doesn't have those issues and has a much better chance of living up to that potential.
I also value production, but the absence of any production in college by Bryce Brown makes my point for me. It proves that he's a very talented player to have done nothing of note in college and still have NFL teams looking to add him to their roster.
If I had my choice of either Ray Rice or Adrian Peterson on my football team I'll take Adrian Peterson 100 times out of 100. It might just be my personal preference but I think Adrian Peterson is the most dynamic and talented RB in the NFL.
That's how you framed the discussion which is fine. But that wasn't my motivation.
I want the RB that fits our system and will produce the most for Michigan.
IMO, Smith is the better fit.
However, IF (and that's a big IF) Isaac can legitimately become a 6'2" and 235 lb. college RB without losing any of his speed/quickness then I will be inclined to go with him.
WOW, Frank C killing it with the rebuttals.....This may seem unusual, but D. Smith seems like the less risky prospect due to all the inflated expectations Isaac has. I also think you know exactly what you get with D. Smith, and there seems to be more general caveats with Isaac and his running style. I dont know how you turn down either though.......whoever commits first you take and let the chips fall where they may after.
It all comes down to personal preference and I think Ty is a better fit. So we agree to disagree. Hopefully we can get both of these guys and they turn into another Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown like Borges had at Auburn.
Was the same thing not said about Adrian Peterson coming out of both high school and college? Some guys can just get it done with that style, not many, but a select elite few can.
We may win
We may lose
But we always bleed
Maize and Blue
If Smith and Isaac both signed with Michigan that would be awesome. Teams would have a ton of trouble facing two RB's with that much talent.
Smith is going to run over people at Michigan, can't wait.
This post was edited by UMFB 2 years ago
Whoever wants to be a Michigan Man is fine in my book.
Same here but i really want both!
Here are some more Smith highlights.
Edit: I changed the video.
Two game highlights of Warren Howland (Ohio) class of 2013 RB DeVeon Smith,
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by buttesnake 2 years ago
That's was in my original post.
Ok I switched it up.
Both. They're totally different so I could see us maybe taking both (as long as the future plan for shallman isn't RB)
so we're all judging that he isn't a physical runner based off his highlight tape. anyone actually seen the kid play in person? the kids got enough speed and breakaway ability that he can fill a 10 minute tape with just clips of him breaking long runs. I don't know I just feel like a 215 pound back as a junior in high school might not be as hard to bring down as you might think from watching a highlight tape, which can always be deceiving. i read in one article that people who HAVE watched him play, have drawn comparisons to Marcus Allen. Marcus Allen was certainly not a finesse football player. he's definitely not the physical beast that smith is, I just don't think it's fair to say he's a finesse guy when you haven't seen one of his runs for less than 10 yards.
Just treated myself to some Mike Hart highlights on youtube and that made me really want Smith. Then I clicked on the Tryone Wheatley tribute and now I want them both.
Hey everyone, the last few days I've been thinking about this a lot.
Namely, is Ty Isaac really a good fit at Michigan?
I'll start with some background. While I am a fan of American football since I was a kid, I never played a snap since I didn't grow up in the US. My knowledge of football schemes are limited, but just recently with this Isaac debate I've been looking up stuff from smartfootball.com among others. So feel free to let me know what you think and please do correct me if I'm wrong with any of this.
Ty Isaac has said he wants to be in a pro-style system. And given that he'd probably like to get to the NFL some day, it's understandable. But let's get a little deeper here. When we use the term 'pro-style' offense, we mostly use it in a sense that it's NOT a 'spread' offense. And while there are a lot of varieties to the spread offense(such as the spread-to-run RichRod), it seems the core concepts of the spread involve the passing game. What I want to say is, the distinction of pro-style/spread has more to do with passing than the running.(At least from how I understand, so feel free to chime in) And I know that the RB is an integral part of the passing game as well to varying degrees depending on the scheme, but I'm leaving that aside for now.
To a runningback, a more important thing related to offensive schemes should be the blocking scheme. Many pro teams and college teams use a mixture of it, but the two main styles are man-blocking and zone-blocking. Man blocking is pretty straightforward in that you have an assigned defender that you have to go and block as a OL, TE, or FB. You just have to win those one-on-on battles. The zone blocking system(ZBS), made famous by Kirk Ferentz at Iowa and Alex Gibbs with the Denver Broncos under Mike Shanahan, is quite different from the man-blocking scheme. I won't go in-depth here, but basically the goal is to get the defense to move sideways, and try to create a cutback lane for the RB. FYI, the zone blocking system-ZBS isn't married to the spread offense. A link below explains how Mike Shanahan used to employ a pro-style west coast offense(WCO) combined with man blocking(this is Al Borges' bread and butter), and when he went to the Denver Broncos how he merged his WCO with a ZBS. He found Terrell Davis among others, and the rest is history.
ZBS requires a different type of OL than a MBS. They don't have to be as big and overpowering, but they should be quick and very good with technique and be able to really run. Now here's why I started this dissertation on this thing: What kind of RB fits the ZBS? I've posted a link below, but simply put the ideal ZBS runner is a "one cut"(1C) runner. If you read the link, Ty Isaac screams 1C runner to me.
This post is getting too long, so I'll post part II depending on your reaction to this.
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How Houston's zone-blocking run game gives them a chance.
This post has been edited 9 times, most recently by Nutcracker 2 years ago
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