Wolverine247 Board

The place for discussion on the Michigan Wolverines

Reply

Dunn to OSU

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    USC's head coach was not implicated; Ohio's was

    USC's situation involved one player; Ohio's involved many (and, with the revelations this summer, more than one set of violations)

    USC was not alleged to be a "repeat violator" by the NCAA; Ohio was

    See, I can play this game too. The two situations are different. Period. End of discussion. The NCAA is going to do what the NCAA is going to do and Ohio has given them more than sufficient justification for whatever they hand down as penalties. Just deal with it. The penalties are going to be whatever the NCAA decides and there is nothing Gordon Gee, Gene Smith, Urban Meyer or a bunch of whiny Ohio message board posters can do about it.

    USC was charged with BOTH FTM and LOIC. Ohio State is charged with FTM. You can keep saying that this person did this and this person did that, but it is the charges that matter.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    USC was charged with BOTH FTM and LOIC. Ohio State is charged with FTM. You can keep saying that this person did this and this person did that, but it is the charges that matter.

    It's the charges that matter? You do realize you were charged with being a "repeat violator", right? That means that the NCAA could give you the death penalty, if they wanted to do so. The NCAA has charged you with MORE than they charged USC with and certainly enough to do anything they want in regards to penalties.

    This post was edited by MrWoodson 3 years ago

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    It's the charges that matter? You do realize you were charged with being a "repeat violator", right? That means that the NCAA could give you the death penalty, right? The NCAA has charged you with MORE than they charged USC with and certainly enough to do anything they want in regards to penalties.

    You may be right...but I am not holding my breath.

    www.neoavatara.com/blog

  • neoavatara said... (original post)

    You may be right...but I am not holding my breath.

    That's the thing that kills me. I haven't once said what I think they will get. Why? Because I have no idea. But neither do they. They are living in la la land if they think they do.

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    It's the charges that matter? You do realize you were charged with being a "repeat violator", right? That means that the NCAA could give you the death penalty, if they wanted to do so. The NCAA has charged you with MORE than they charged USC with and certainly enough to do anything they want in regards to penalties.

    Speechless......... (Although, this post does prove my point about delusional Michigan fans)

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    Speechless......... (Although, this post does prove my point about delusional Michigan fans)

    Well, at least I accomplished something positive. You have been rendered speechless.

    goblue

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    Well, at least I accomplished something positive. You have been rendered speechless.

    goblue

    Yep. I am speechless. I can't carry on a conversation or debate with someone who is as uninformed as you. I am hoping that other Michigan fans would be up for a friendly debate. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of michigan fans on the board right now.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    Yep. I am speechless. I can't carry on a conversation or debate with someone who is as uninformed as you. I am hoping that other Michigan fans would be up for a friendly debate. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of michigan fans on the board right now.

    You can find plenty of Ohio fans who will agree with you that they know for a fact that the NCAA will accept Ohio's self-imposed penalties "as-is" over at Bucknuts. Enjoy. And although your departure from this board will no doubt hit everyone here very hard, I'm certain we will somehow find a way to survive without you.

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    You can find plenty of Ohio fans who will agree with you that they know for a fact that the NCAA will accept Ohio's self-imposed penalties "as-is" over at Bucknuts. Enjoy. And although your departure from this board will no doubt hit everyone here very hard, I'm certain we will somehow find a way to survive without you.

    You guy's like to ban people for different, well informed opinions? Seriously? No name calling, swearing, or cutting on Michigan coaches or players, or using stupid abbreviations to describe Michigan and I would still get banned? It seems that if that is the standard you will be banning many Michigan fans too.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    You guy's like to ban people for different, well informed opinions? Seriously? No name calling, swearing, or cutting on Michigan coaches or players, or using stupid abbreviations to describe Michigan and I would still get banned? It seems that if that is the standard you will be banning many Michigan fans too.

    Uhhh, I'm not a mod. I have no ability to ban anyone.

  • You dont know what penalties are going. We dont know what the penalties are going to be. So stop post on here because you have know idea what your talking. Stop talking out of your *** and just leave are board.

    signature image signature image signature image
  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    There is no "getting away with breaking the rules". Players were suspended and the coach got fired. Ohio State had to vacate a whole season and Bowl game, refund money, lose scholarships, and probation.

    Of course anything short of USC type sanctions or the Death Penalty would not satisify Michigan fans. Seriously, if you take the name "Ohio State" of the the picture, the self imposed penalties are perfect. Michigan fans sound delusional wanting much more severe sanctions. Face it, the ONLY reson why Michigan fans want severe/crippling sanctions is because of the beatdowns you guy's have recieved over the last decade. You want the NCAA to keep Ohio State down as "payback" and allow your coaches free reign over Ohio players in recruiting. That is the truth. If Michigan had been beating Ohio State like they were in the 1990's, every Michigan fan would not be calling for severe sanctions.

    I would be satisfied with a 1 year postseason ban because I think that punishment fits the evidence. The evidence I see is :

    - Head coach and players petitioned NCAA and Big Ten to play in the postseason, even though all involved knew violations had occurred and they should not be allowed to play.
    (key point for me) - An investigation was done by the University, not the fired head coach or suspended players, BEFORE petitioning for those players to be eligible and came back saying "this is it, nothing else was wrong, so let them play."
    - That investigation, by the university, failed to find more evidence on both Posey and Herron which later came out leading them to get suspended longer and have the Failure to Monitor charge added.

    So when you say all parties were penalized, I disagree since the university itself claimed they did an investigation into the players, but failed to see the booster issues with DeGeronimo and pushed for them to play in the postseason. The activities here clearly affected postseason play, so the penalty should as well, in my opinion. I don't think it has to be the USC penalties because Bush and Carroll bolted without anything happening to them, so the program paid for it. There were player suspensions in this case, so that should count for something, but I don't think missing some regular season games makes up for the petitioning to get them in the bowl game when all parties involved should've known they should not be playing.

  • Dizzo said... (original post)

    I would be satisfied with a 1 year postseason ban because I think that punishment fits the evidence. The evidence I see is :

    - Head coach and players petitioned NCAA and Big Ten to play in the postseason, even though all involved knew violations had occurred and they should not be allowed to play. (key point for me) - An investigation was done by the University, not the fired head coach or suspended players, BEFORE petitioning for those players to be eligible and came back saying "this is it, nothing else was wrong, so let them play." - That investigation, by the university, failed to find more evidence on both Posey and Herron which later came out leading them to get suspended longer and have the Failure to Monitor charge added.

    So when you say all parties were penalized, I disagree since the university itself claimed they did an investigation into the players, but failed to see the booster issues with DeGeronimo and pushed for them to play in the postseason. The activities here clearly affected postseason play, so the penalty should as well, in my opinion. I don't think it has to be the USC penalties because Bush and Carroll bolted without anything happening to them, so the program paid for it. There were player suspensions in this case, so that should count for something, but I don't think missing some regular season games makes up for the petitioning to get them in the bowl game when all parties involved should've known they should not be playing.

    Again, I have no idea what the NCAA is going to do, but the case for a bowl ban is fairly simple IMO. The Vest lied and Ohio conducted a sham investigation last December (11 days with an "all clear" finding) in order to get five ineligible players back on the field quickly for the Sugar Bowl. If the Vest had been honest or the school had conducted a real investigation (which would have taken months, not a week and a half), the NCAA would never have reinstated those players for the Sugar Bowl. Add to that the fact that the NCAA was made out to look like bigger boobs than normal once it became public that the Vest had lied to them and had known about the extra benefits going back to the previous Spring and you have a perfect storm for the NCAA handing out a bowl ban. It does not mean that they will, but no one should be surprised if they do.

    This post was edited by MrWoodson 3 years ago

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    Again, I have no idea what the NCAA is going to do, but the case for a bowl ban is fairly simple IMO. The Vest lied and Ohio conducted a sham investigation last December (11 days with an "all clear" finding) in order to get five ineligible players back on the field quickly for the Sugar Bowl. If the Vest had been honest or the school had conducted a real investigation (which would have taken months, not a week and a half), the NCAA would never have reinstated those players for the Sugar Bowl. Add to that the fact that the NCAA was made out to look like bigger boobs than normal and you have a perfect storm for the NCAA handing out a bowl ban. It does not mean that they will, but no one should be surprised if they do.

    Exactly..

    USC had Bush play in multiple postseasons and they got multiple years punishment for it. That's where I disagree with the Buckeye poster saying Michigan fans won't be satisfied without the death penalty or USC level sanctions. I think Pryor was as dirty as Bush, no question, but there is no hard evidence for that and nobody willing to roll on him like the agents who tried to get their money back from Reggie.

    So in terms of what I think is fair, would be a one year ban because of the players being allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a ban because the NCAA seems completely random in how they make decisions, but I don't expect it to be nearly as bad as USC.

  • SimplyComplex said... (original post)

    zzo said...

    I would be satisfied with a 1 year postseason ban because I think that punishment fits the evidence. The evidence I see is :

    - Head coach and players petitioned NCAA and Big Ten to play in the postseason, even though all involved knew violations had occurred and they should not be allowed to play. (key point for me) - An investigation was done by the University, not the fired head coach or suspended players, BEFORE petitioning for those players to be eligible and came back saying "this is it, nothing else was wrong, so let them play." - That investigation, by the university, failed to find more evidence on both Posey and Herron which later came out leading them to get suspended longer and have the Failure to Monitor charge added.

    So when you say all parties were penalized, I disagree since the university itself claimed they did an investigation into the players, but failed to see the booster issues with DeGeronimo and pushed for them to play in the postseason. The activities here clearly affected postseason play, so the penalty should as well, in my opinion. I don't think it has to be the USC penalties because Bush and Carroll bolted without anything happening to them, so the program paid for it. There were player suspensions in this case, so that should count for something, but I don't think missing some regular season games makes up for the petitioning to get them in the bowl game when all parties involved should've known they should not be playing.

    The Booster issue was seperate and is what caused the FTM. It was completely seperate from tatgate. By the way, the reason why the university didn't find it in December is because they went to the charity in the spring. That launched an investigation into what exactly Bobby D was up to.

    All parties were in fact penalized. The players lost a LOT of playing time. (Of course that doesn't sastify many Michigan fans), Tressel did lose his job (it's not like he was talking retirement), the school had to vacate a B1G Title, vacate games, and is on probation. That pretty much covers everyone involved.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Dizzo said... (original post)

    Exactly..

    USC had Bush play in multiple postseasons and they got multiple years punishment for it. That's where I disagree with the Buckeye poster saying Michigan fans won't be satisfied without the death penalty or USC level sanctions. I think Pryor was as dirty as Bush, no question, but there is no hard evidence for that and nobody willing to roll on him like the agents who tried to get their money back from Reggie.

    So in terms of what I think is fair, would be a one year ban because of the players being allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a ban because the NCAA seems completely random in how they make decisions, but I don't expect it to be nearly as bad as USC.

    If a FTM charge brings a 1 year Bowl ban, then shouldn't Michigan have a Bowl ban for their FTM? Again, I keep saying that the punishment needs to fit the crime. The people involved were actually punished. Why would the NCAA be vindictive and take it a step further and punish people who had nothing to do with it? Don't say that they did it to USC. That is a different situation involving more than 1 sport and they had more charges, LOIC and FTM.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Dizzo said... (original post)

    Exactly..

    USC had Bush play in multiple postseasons and they got multiple years punishment for it. That's where I disagree with the Buckeye poster saying Michigan fans won't be satisfied without the death penalty or USC level sanctions. I think Pryor was as dirty as Bush, no question, but there is no hard evidence for that and nobody willing to roll on him like the agents who tried to get their money back from Reggie.

    So in terms of what I think is fair, would be a one year ban because of the players being allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a ban because the NCAA seems completely random in how they make decisions, but I don't expect it to be nearly as bad as USC.

    Yes. And, FWIW, I think Ohio fans are getting their panties in a bunch over a relatively minor thing - a one year bowl ban. If I were them, I would be much more worried about something else.

    Throughout this process, it has looked like Gene Smith is either knowingly sweeping whatever he can under the rug as best he can or is just plain incompetent. For a year now, Ohio has been conducting internal "investigations" and reporting back to the NCAA that it basically is finding no violations. If new evidence pops up a year or two from now that shows additional violations or that someone (Smith?) covered up violations as part of this process with the NCAA (see Dennis Talbot and CarGate), the NCAA is going to come back and hammer them. I don't know about you, but I would not be sleeping very well the next few years if I were an Ohio fan knowing that Gene Smith was the guy in charge when all of this stuff was "handled" in 2011.

    This post was edited by MrWoodson 3 years ago

  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    If a FTM charge brings a 1 year Bowl ban, then shouldn't Michigan have a Bowl ban for their FTM? Again, I keep saying that the punishment needs to fit the crime. The people involved were actually punished. Why would the NCAA be vindictive and take it a step further and punish people who had nothing to do with it? Don't say that they did it to USC. That is a different situation involving more than 1 sport and they had more charges, LOIC and FTM.

    Punishment needs to fit the crime as you say. One major part of the crime was covering up/not disclosing what the coach knew to make players eligible for a bowl game. So getting a postseason ban seems to fit there, more than it seems to fit for additional coaches (which Michigan cut their coaching hours allowed), additional GA's (which Michigan cut), and additional practice hours (which Michigan cut as well).

    And are you really saying the investigation didn't find anything because the Degeronimo stuff was separate from the tattoo stuff? It is not separate when two players are involved in both and were investigated in December. Smith tried to play it off that "We investigated these players and there are no other issues at all, it was an isolated incident." He didn't say "We looked into the tattoo stuff and they got a couple tats for merchandise, but that was it and it only happened last year." He specifically said there was nothing else, even though there was, so what should the penalty be that fits the crime of the university doing an investigation, missing blatant violations, and still pushing for their players to be eligible for a bowl game?

    This post was edited by Dizzo 3 years ago

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    Yes. And, FWIW, I think Ohio fans are getting their panties in a bunch over a relatively minor thing - a one year bowl ban. If I were them, I would be much more worried about something else.

    Throughout this process, it has looked like Gene Smith is either knowingly sweeping whatever he can under the rug as best he can or is just plain incompetent. For a year now, Ohio has been conducting internal "investigations" and reporting back to the NCAA that it basically is finding no violations. If new evidence pops up a year or two from now that shows additional violations or that someone (Smith?) covered up violations as part of this process with the NCAA (see Dennis Talbot and CarGate), the NCAA is going to come back and hammer them. I don't know about you, but I would not be sleeping very well the next few years if I were an Ohio fan knowing that Gene Smith was the guy in charge when all of this stuff was "handled" in 2011.

    More misinformation. Cargate - The NCAA investigated it TWICE, Ohio State investigated it, and the State of Ohio investigated it and the deals were legal and not a violation of any NCAA rule. The other piece of misinformation is Talbot. Michigan fans WANT to believe that he actually paid Pryor $20,000 to $40,000 in checks. First, there are no checks. The NCAA looked and there is nothing there. Second, Talbott doesn't make that kind of money himself, let alone have the means to pay someone that. The whole Talbott thing is nothing more than internet rumor. Talbott works at an employment agency finding people temporary jobs. he is not rich and certainly can't pay that kind of money. No checks, no money, and all rumor.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Dizzo said... (original post)

    Punishment needs to fit the crime as you say. One major part of the crime was covering up/not disclosing what the coach knew to make players eligible for a bowl game. So getting a postseason ban seems to fit there, more than it seems to fit for additional coaches (which Michigan cut their coaching hours allowed), additional GA's (which Michigan cut), and additional practice hours (which Michigan cut as well).

    And are you really saying the investigation didn't find anything because the Degeronimo stuff was separate from the tattoo stuff? It was completely separate, except for the two players who were involved in both and were investigated in December. Smith tried to play it off that "We investigated these players and there are no other issues at all, it was an isolated incident." He didn't say "We looked into the tattoo stuff and they got a couple tats for merchandise, but that was it and it only happened last year." He specifically said there was nothing else, even though there was, so what should the penalty be that fits the crime of the university doing an investigation, missing blatant violations, and still pushing for their players to be eligible for a bowl game?

    They found out about what Tressel knew in the middle of January. That was AFTER the Sugar Bowl. Yes, the Bobby D situation is seperate. they found out about it in the Spring.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    More misinformation. Cargate - The NCAA investigated it TWICE, Ohio State investigated it, and the State of Ohio investigated it and the deals were legal and not a violation of any NCAA rule. The other piece of misinformation is Talbot. Michigan fans WANT to believe that he actually paid Pryor $20,000 to $40,000 in checks. First, there are no checks. The NCAA looked and there is nothing there. Second, Talbott doesn't make that kind of money himself, let alone have the means to pay someone that. The whole Talbott thing is nothing more than internet rumor. Talbott works at an employment agency finding people temporary jobs. he is not rich and certainly can't pay that kind of money. No checks, no money, and all rumor.

    More misinformation.. the Talbott thing is not just internet rumor. See the link below.

    "In its self-report, Ohio State said that school and NCAA investigators found Posey had received an extra benefit as a result of not paying rental and greens fees during a golf outing with Columbus-area photographer Dennis Talbott."

    Ohio State themselves self reported that Posey got benefits from Tablott. I'm not saying the $20k thing was true, but it wasn't all completely false either.

    Three Ohio State Buckeyes suspended for summe

    Three Ohio State players have been suspended for Saturday's game for accepting too much money for too little work in their summer jobs.

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7054653/three-ohio-state-buckeyes-suspended-summer-job-pay-two-suspensions-extended
  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    More misinformation. Cargate - The NCAA investigated it TWICE, Ohio State investigated it, and the State of Ohio investigated it and the deals were legal and not a violation of any NCAA rule. The other piece of misinformation is Talbot. Michigan fans WANT to believe that he actually paid Pryor $20,000 to $40,000 in checks. First, there are no checks. The NCAA looked and there is nothing there. Second, Talbott doesn't make that kind of money himself, let alone have the means to pay someone that. The whole Talbott thing is nothing more than internet rumor. Talbott works at an employment agency finding people temporary jobs. he is not rich and certainly can't pay that kind of money. No checks, no money, and all rumor.

    How can it be misinformation when I did not allege anything or even say I knew anything? I simply said that I would be worried if I were an Ohio fan because I would be relying on Gene Smith being honest and competent. Maybe he did a smashing job with his investigations, turning over every rock and providing every tidbit he discovered to the NCAA. Then, again, maybe he didn't. You better hope and pray that he did, because I don't think the NCAA is going to look kindly on being lied to twice.

  • Dizzo said... (original post)

    More misinformation.. the Talbott thing is not just internet rumor. See the link below.

    "In its self-report, Ohio State said that school and NCAA investigators found Posey had received an extra benefit as a result of not paying rental and greens fees during a golf outing with Columbus-area photographer Dennis Talbott."

    Ohio State themselves self reported that Posey got benefits from Tablott. I'm not saying the $20k thing was true, but it wasn't all completely false either.

    A golf outing is a whole lot different than paying someone $20,000 to $40,000. Talbot takes pictures of Buckeye players on saturdays as his second job. Taking Posey golfing would not have resulted in a 10 game suspension that Posey brought onto himself. the $20k thing is completely false.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/

  • Buckeye Warrior said... (original post)

    They found out about what Tressel knew in the middle of January. That was AFTER the Sugar Bowl. Yes, the Bobby D situation is seperate. they found out about it in the Spring.

    Tressel knew before the Sugar Bowl. He knew going back to the previous March or April. Yet, when he was interviewed in December of last year by both the school and the NCAA, he lied both times (unless you think he told the truth to Gene Smith and Gene Smith was complicit in the lying to the NCAA). If Tressel had told the truth, those players never would have played in the Sugar Bowl. Q.E.D.

  • MrWoodson said... (original post)

    How can it be misinformation when I did not allege anything or even say I knew anything? I simply said that I would be worried if I were an Ohio fan because I would be relying on Gene Smith being honest and competent. Maybe he did a smashing job with his investigations, turning over every rock and providing every tidbit he discovered to the NCAA. Then, again, maybe he didn't. You better hope and pray that he did, because I don't think the NCAA is going to look kindly on being lied to twice.

    It was the NCAA who gave Ohio State the anal exam, not Gene Smith.

    signature image

    www.miamiproject.miami.edu/