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So our defense had like 100th+ worse talent in the nation RichRod's last year? And yet had top 20 talent in Hoke's first year? Get real.
" Here are the members of the secondary in the recruiting classes that comprise this year's team:
2005: None. (Harrison, Sears, Richards all gone.)
2006: None. (Mouton, Brown moved to LB.)
2007: Warren, Woolfolk, Williams, Rogers. (Chambers gone.)
2008: JT Floyd (Smith moved to LB, Cissoko is gone.)
***Excluding true freshmen, Michigan has five scholarship players for four starting spots, none of whom are seniors and one of whom is a positional vagabond who was a huge reach even at WR. Attrition has something to do with it, but poor recruiting—the 2006 class didn't have a single corner, and the 2007 class had two reaches and one Notre Dame defection—had much more. With Woolfolk's move Michigan has one scholarship safety on the roster outside of true freshmen.**** Not to go all ND-fan-talking-about-Ty here, but lord I don't know if anyone could dig themselves out from that."
...so what was being said about the glorious 2005 - 2008 recruiting classes?
A horrible confluence of events:
1. Michigan had generally small recruiting classes
2. Those defensive recruiting classes were about on par with Penn State anyway, and well below those of Ohio State
3. Michigan had exceptionally high attrition from its 2005 to 2008 classes. <---------------------------------------
4. Attrition disproportionately attacked our higher-rated players.
5. Attrition disproportionately attacked our older players
6. Of Michigan's 3-star recruits, a disproportionately few ended up as contributors"
"On Lloyd, and his staff:
Someone should have recognized the weak depth at safety back when Marlin Jackson had to move there for a season. Lloyd let the positition go unaddressed in recruiting for years, which killed us in 2005 (burning Brandon Harrison's redshirt in the process).
And then he came back with Jonas Mouton and Stevie Brown, two outside linebackers, meaning in the recruiting year immediatly after "Safety Armageddon" we got ZERO defensive backs.
Ron English had (still has) a strange belief that Johnny Sears was a great future cornerback, even after The Horror."
More facts? More facts.
"Michigan has had higher attrition from 2005 to 2009 than Alabama.
Let's rephrase: Michigan has had higher attrition than a team that has been TRYING TO SHED PLAYERS."
Quoted verbatim from right here:
So if one wishes to speak authoritatively on what talent Michigan had post Lloyd Carr, might want do a little research first. And the Toledo example is silly. They had a walk-on QB and a pocket passing QB (neither of who could throw very accurately 15 yards down field, bless them both) running zone read, plus a running back (Minor) who was pouting because McGuffie earned the job by practicing hard, learning the plays, and not fumbling.
For starters. But...more solid examples to support your arguments, please.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Kenetic 18 months ago
Lol @ making up quotes and attacking said made up quotes - and then unsuccessfully attempting to attribute said made up quotes to another individual.
Cute. Might fool some though.
You said the talent was deficient. No way Michigan's talent was that bad on defense that it should of put out a defense ranked in the 100's. If it was that bad then how did Hoke and Mattison turn it into a top 20 defense? Fact is there was enough talent on defense to at least put out a mediocre defense in the 50's nationally.
What about the other position groups? The DBs were the only problem under RR. The DL outside of Graham and Martin, the LBs, the TEs, the OL, and the RBs were all lack luster under RR.
He couldn't coach worth shit, regardless of how you try to spin it, Hoke took that same talent that went 7-5 with one of the worst defenses in the country and turned it into a BCS bowl winner and top 25 defense.
The talent WAS deficient. Either you chose not to read the EXTENSIVE RESEARCH done on the talent deficiencies on the defensive side of the ball listed here: http://mgoblog.com/diaries/decimated-defense and here: http://mgoblog.com/diaries/decimated-defense-part-ii-statisticating
(HINT HINT: IT'S ENTITLED "DECIMATED DEFENSE FOR A REASON)
...or you cannot read it.
Won't bother assuming which it is.
Once again, for your edification:
Defensive Recruits No Longer With the Team: 2005-2009
Name Class Pos StarsRR What happened?
Eugene Germany 2005 DE **** 6.0 Left team
James McKinney 2005 DT **** 5.9 Left team
Terrance Taylor 2005 DT **** 5.9 Graduated
Brandon Harrison 2005 CB **** 5.8 Graduated
Johnny Sears 2005 CB *** 5.6 Left team
Brandon Logan 2005 LB *** 5.6 Graduated
Chris Richards 2005 ATH *** 5.5 Left team
Carson Butler 2005 DE *** 5.5 Moved to TE, left for NFL
Chris McLaurin 2005 DE *** 5.5 Left team (health)
Jason Kates 2006 DT **** 5.8 Left team
Cobrani Mixon 2006 LB **** 5.8 Left team
Quintin Patilla 2006 LB *** 5.7 Left team
Quintin Woods 2006 DE *** 5.6 Left team
Austin Panter 2007 LB **** 5.8 Graduated
Artis Chambers 2007 S *** 5.6 Left team
Marell Evans 2007 LB ** 5.2 Left team
Boubacar Cissoko 2008 CB **** 6.0 Left team
Marcus Witherspoon 2008 LB **** 5.8 Did not qualify
Taylor Hill 2008 LB **** 5.8 Left team
Adrian Witty 2009 CB ** 5.3 Did not qualify (may return)
FACTS. You don't have to like them; but they exist. That's what I'm using to support my posit. What are you using to support yours?
And your query is, again, silly. The talent that RR INHERITED was deficient. "The cupboard was bare" when he INHERITED the team. So precisely why are you asking me about talent he recruited that was inherited by Hoke?
You do realize there's a difference between "the talent on defense was deficient" when he came on board and the talent that Hoke inherited right? You do realize those are...two separate arguments?
Um, what were you saying about the other position groups? Lol, post beneath yours.
OL was "lackluster" under RR? Really? That OL coach was solid. Do you type first and consider later? I'll just laugh at that; no need to comment further. And Coach Jackson sucked, you're saying - with RBs that Carr recruited (Brandon Minor, Carlos Brown)? Werd. Offense wasn't the issue, champ.
Regarding RR's coaching, enjoy your **opinion**. I never commented one way or the other on his coaching in this entire THREAD; I simply said that for those complaining about his comment re: the talent he inherited, might want to do a little research first, as the FACTS say otherwise.
So precisely who is spinning what here?
First off there is no reason to personally attack me by saying i cannot read because i disagree with your opinion. Second, mgoblog is just that a blog. Using diaries from mgoblog to support your opinion is junk.
I am using the fact that our D was ranked 24th in total D and 23rd in scoring D in 2007. 2008 under RR it dropped to 67th in total D and 84th in total D. Then proceeded to get worse every single year. Then Hoke takes over and in one year with him and Mattison we have a top 20 D again. Something doesn't add up here. I would say it's the guys who coached from 2008-2010 that was the problem. Not the talent.
Do tell how saying maybe you cannot read it (links won't work, browser crashing, who knows) OR you chose not to read them (cherry pick much) is an ad hominem attack?
Using "diaries" to support my opinion is junk, yet your failing to point out one inaccuracy, one incongruity in said "junk" should be referenced as what? Those are facts, as I've said several times. Facts are your friend. Why haven't you posted any?
I really don't care to engage your opinion regarding the talent level on defense as it has been dissected ad infinitum several times; it is a FACT that, between 2005-2008:
Michigan had generally small recruiting classes
Those defensive recruiting classes were about on par with Penn State anyway, and well below those of Ohio State
Michigan had exceptionally high attrition from its 2005 to 2008 classes. <-----------------------------
Attrition disproportionately attacked our higher-rated players. <-----------------------------------
Attrition disproportionately attacked our older players. <--------------------------------------
Of Michigan's 3-star recruits, a disproportionately few ended up as contributors.
(You don't want to read the diary because it is counter to your position. I'm not foolish . This also says that you've zero interest in discussing the matter OBJECTIVELY; instead of taking the opportunity to learn more about the subject, you cling obstinately to your opinion. No problem though.)
See the arrows? Did it dawn on you that many of the players from the defense you pointed out in 2007...LEFT? Duh GERG was a horrible defensive coordinator coupled with the **fact** that: Michigan was incredibly young on defense; Michigan was incredibly thin on depth as a result of high attrition so HAD to play young, inexperienced players; Michigan didn't have a lot of talent on defense as a result of meh recruiting under Carr and attrition.
This post has been edited 4 times, most recently by Kenetic 18 months ago
For all those who were saying they just wanted a change on D, do many of them realize that no matter who was the D-Cordinator, RichRod forced the 3-3-5 defense on them? That is what he ran at WVU and what he wanted run. The 3-3-5 is excellent against finesse offenses because it gets more athletes on the field. However, against the Big 10 brand of football, it is awful. 5 O-Linemen, 1 TE, 1 FB, that's 7 blockers against 6 up front on defense. There is a reason why our safeties were tackling machines in this defense. I do feel his offense AND defense will work well in the PAC 10 though. He was a terrible fit here though...like trying to jam a square peg into a round hole.
Dunno if that's accurate; Shafer didn't run the 3-3-5 at first did he? Pretty sure he ran a 4-3. And they've run 3-4, 4-3, 4-4 as well. Don't know how one can conclusively say odd stack defense is awful against the "Big 10 brand of football" (and what is that anyway, considering Illinois, Nebraska, NW, tOSU, Penn State, Purdue all run/have run spread offenses?) considering one typically wants a stout NG - and Michigan never had that?
We can conclude that Gerg's 3-3-5 sucked, sure.
And lol @ whomever had hurt feelings from posted facts earlier. Sorry
Well I was banned from GBW for writing a long post demanding he was fired in December 2010, so I think the answer is yes.
But it's more complex, I wasn't a RR hater or one of the "old guard" type guys who hated the spread and all that. I had been a Carr critic (since prolly around 2002 actually) and a big RR proponent through the 2009 season. I started to get doubts about RR during the course of the 2010 season and by the time we blew the Penn State game I basically figured that things had gotten too bad for this regime to continue even if it wasn't all RR's fault. Wisconsin strengthened that view and the OSU loss was no surprise. At that point I was convinced he had to go. The Mississippi State loss didn't really change things for me, just confirmed it.
I have posted facts. The Total D and Scoring D numbers before RR got to Michigan, while RR was here and after RR was at Michigan. Why do you ignore those?
Ryan Van Bergen
Were all guys on that 2008 team and many were on the 2009 as well. Quite a few of those guys were drafted and got shots to play in the NFL. Seems like there was plenty of talent when RR got here.
Arizona is about to beat USC for what it is worth.
Defense wasn't the problem in 2008, the offense that lacked talent was.
One thing I will always give RichRod credit for, he will not win at all cost. If a kid has a concussion, he sits.
Also, Arizona better keep getting 1st downs or score a TD, their defense won't stop USC.
Nice win for Arizona and RichRod. Upsets USC.
Yeah I think Arizona is a good place for him. The pressure to win isn't that big, if you get blown out vs Oregon people go "oh well that's normal". Those guys don't mind basketball-type scores and there's no entrenched culture in place either.
I think RR is a really good coach, I think we just turned out to be a really bad fit and he really could have used Casteel here as well.
The defense wasn't the problem? I suggest you check the scores from 2008 and tell me defense wasn't the problem.
For only having 3 wins, yea defense wasn't the problem, the offense was.
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