Online Now 725

Wolverine247 Board

The place for discussion on the Michigan Wolverines

On this Board 434
Record: 2671 (1/26/2013)

Online now 716
Record: 7264 (3/12/2012)

Reply

I dont get it

  • TheDudeAbides21 said...

    Thats fine, im just saying until Michigan beats them I don't think it's crazy to assume MSU is the favorite. Just because they lost Cousins and their wideouts does not mean there not going to be good this year, They still return the nucleus of an oustanding defense and Dantonio has built them up to the point where they can asborb those losses(Cousins etc) and still be really good the following year. MSU is going to be good this year and anybody thinking they won't are kidding themselves, even if they don't win the big ten title this year then I expect that they still will be in the running for a BCS at large bid this year and I think they will probably end up getting it .

    What's funny to me is that some MSU fans use this same type of "logic" that Michigan fans just used in this thread when discussing Michigan's basketball team as if losing Douglass and Novak are going to somehow set us back and keep us from being better then last year, it won't. Both fanbases just refuse to come to grips with reality, it's actually quite funny at least in my mind.

    Good post. Of course QB is a big question mark for MSU until Maxwell shows he can get it done, but he's been in the program for several years and appears ready to take the job. And in basketball, UM has a great class coming in and a top point guard so they should be as good as last year once they get some experience.

    Personally, I find it hilariously ironic to hear any Michigan fan run down MSU by saying past wins don't guarantee future success...lol

    'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable' - President John F. Kennedy

    WixomSpartan

  • TheDudeAbides21 said...

    Hate to break it to you but MSU is going to continue to be a good program as long as Dantonio is coaching at MSU, I think some Michigan fans need to come to grips with that the man is a oustanding coach with a great staff. Just because Michigan is really good does not mean MSU can't be good as well, the success rate of both programs is not intertwined like many people think. If I knew you personally, I would put money on MSU going 9-3 or 10-2 in the regular season this year.

    This has nothing to do with Dantonio. Remember our transition from 2007 to 2008? We lost Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham and Arrington. That's what MSU is dealing with this year plus they lost two of their best players on D.

    MSU went 10-2 last year with all that talent. They will win a max of 8 games this year. BSU and ND both are serious early OOC threats. And UM, Wisky, OSU, Nebraska and Iowa are all, at best, 50/50 games. That still leaves NW and Minn, both of which MSU should beat, but if MSU struggles putting up points this year due to the loss of Cousins & Co. even those games will not be gimmees.

    I'm glad you think Dantonio is a good coach. Good coaches still need good/experienced players. Dantonio has won fewer than 8 games twice while he's been at MSU (7-5 in 2007 and 6-6 in 2009). 2009 was Dantonio's third year as HC but it was Kirk Cousins' first year as a starter. And UM was a dumpster fire that year. In 2012, MSU again is breaking in a new starting QB along with nearly all new starting offensive skill players. In 2012, UM is not only not a dumpster fire but we are favored by many to win the B10. MSU will have a transition year in 2012. This is not a knock on Coach Dantonio. It is just a reality based on player turnover.

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by MrWoodson on 7/29/2012 at 8:16 AM

    MrWoodson

  • Tbh, the B1G has a good chance of just being incredibly weak this year...I don't think it's too far-fetched that our champion could come out of the CCG 10-3 or 9-4

    inuyesta

  • MrWoodson said...

    The reality is Sparty had a couple of good years and now it's over. If happens every 20-25 years. They will not win the B10 this year. They will not win their division this year. And, yes, losing your 3 year starting QB (who also is the best QB you've have in 25 years), your top 3 WRs and #1 TE (all multi year starters), a first team All B10 OL, the best DT in the league and a couple other significant contributors all at the same time matters. It would be a challenge for Alabama to lose all that at once and MSU doesn't have anywhere near the talent or depth as Alabama.

    How can you claim "that's the reality" when you're trying to predict the future? People claimed that MSU getting lucky was "the reality" and it was all over for them in 2009, 2010, and 2011 when they beat UM. People claimed that getting lucky was "the reality" and it was over when they lost Greg Jones from their defense, and then Chris L Rucker.

    The fact is that MSU returns 18/22 players (iirc) on their defense, which was widely considered best in the B1G last year. They have lost ONE offensive lineman (sidestepping your "first team all B10 OL" which makes it sound like they have huge losses there) and one defensive lineman, a tackle. The rest of the lines have great depth for the first time in Dantonio's time at MSU. Every position except QB has been battle tested (yes, even the WRs. We have two upperclassmen (Fowler and Lippett) who have seen a lot of time on the field but have been fighting injuries so they aren't exactly household names) and you also have to remember that these are the WRs Maxwell has been playing with for years on the scout team. Not only is he familiar with them, but he is an Elite 11 QB who has been groomed for the last three years under Cousins.

    Because of all this, saying "the reality is" could be the recipe for being upset again. You say that it would be a challenge for Alabama to lose those starts and I agree that MSU isn't as deep or talented as Alabama, BUT what MSU and Alabama, or any other contending team, has in common is a strong O Line, strong defense, and a strong running game. 4/5 OL returners, 18/22 defensive players returning from the conference's best unit, a junior #1 RB and a senior backing him, and yes, you have the recipe for a scary talented and successful team.

    I think we can all agree that Wisconsin should moonwalk into the CCG. OSU is ineligible and no one else looks to be able to rise to that sort of competition. I think our division has a logjam at the top that consists of MSU, UM, and Nebraska. Iowa could even pull a surprise out of their hat this year but I think it's less likely than the first three teams.

    I'm not claiming any BCS games or national titles runs, just simply saying that there are many reasons to believe that MSU will be good again this year.

    This post was edited by TheBlitzIsOn on 7/29/2012 at 10:29 AM

    signature image

    TheBlitzIsOn

  • MrWoodson said...

    This has nothing to do with Dantonio. Remember our transition from 2007 to 2008? We lost Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham and Arrington. That's what MSU is dealing with this year plus they lost two of their best players on D.

    I think that's an unfair comparison because there was a complete changing of the guard in 2008. New coaches, new system, and a lot of true freshman starting. Even the experienced players were learning new offensive and defensive playbooks. Many of them were not built for RR's spread, so it's not fair to say that the talent from 2007 and 2008 were comparable. Many of those skill positions also started 18 year olds that RR brought over, which is not comparable to RS players who have been sitting for 2-3 years waiting for their time to step into the same schemes, like at MSU.

    signature image

    TheBlitzIsOn

  • TheBlitzIsOn said...

    I think that's an unfair comparison because there was a complete changing of the guard in 2008. New coaches, new system, and a lot of true freshman starting. Even the experienced players were learning new offensive and defensive playbooks. Many of them were not built for RR's spread, so it's not fair to say that the talent from 2007 and 2008 were comparable. Many of those skill positions also started 18 year olds that RR brought over, which is not comparable to RS players who have been sitting for 2-3 years waiting for their time to step into the same schemes, like at MSU.

    Sure which is why instead of getting 6 wins i think you get 2 more and win 8 games this year.

    signature image signature image signature image

    WillyWolverine

  • WixomSpartan said...

    Good post. Of course QB is a big question mark for MSU until Maxwell shows he can get it done, but he's been in the program for several years and appears ready to take the job. And in basketball, UM has a great class coming in and a top point guard so they should be as good as last year once they get some experience.

    Personally, I find it hilariously ironic to hear any Michigan fan run down MSU by saying past wins don't guarantee future success...lol

    Only comment I would make is I think Michigan is going to be a lot better in Basketball then they were a year ago.

    TheDudeAbides21

  • MrWoodson said...

    This has nothing to do with Dantonio. Remember our transition from 2007 to 2008? We lost Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham and Arrington. That's what MSU is dealing with this year plus they lost two of their best players on D.

    MSU went 10-2 last year with all that talent. They will win a max of 8 games this year. BSU and ND both are serious early OOC threats. And UM, Wisky, OSU, Nebraska and Iowa are all, at best, 50/50 games. That still leaves NW and Minn, both of which MSU should beat, but if MSU struggles putting up points this year due to the loss of Cousins & Co. even those games will not be gimmees.

    I'm glad you think Dantonio is a good coach. Good coaches still need good/experienced players. Dantonio has won fewer than 8 games twice while he's been at MSU (7-5 in 2007 and 6-6 in 2009). 2009 was Dantonio's third year as HC but it was Kirk Cousins' first year as a starter. And UM was a dumpster fire that year. In 2012, MSU again is breaking in a new starting QB along with nearly all new starting offensive skill players. In 2012, UM is not only not a dumpster fire but we are favored by many to win the B10. MSU will have a transition year in 2012. This is not a knock on Coach Dantonio. It is just a reality based on player turnover.

    Hahaha... Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham, and Arrington? MSU is not losing anything close to that type of talent. Worthy is the only one that I would throw into that category as a true loss, Cousin is a loss from a leadership standpoint, the rest are replacable and what I would call "good college system players". Jake Long WAS THE NUMBER 1 PICK IN THE NFL DRAFT. Manningham only slipped to the 3rd round because he lied about his positive drug test, he would have been taken in the first round. Henne was taken in the second round. The talent is not even comparable. Manningham and Long are 2 of the best players in the NFL at their respective positions and Henne for all his faults has still put himself in position to be a starting quarterback in the NFL yet again. Arrington is still on saints even after being taken late in the draft(Had he stayed another year he would have at least been a 3rd or 4round selection), the only one not in the league is Hart and I would say that has as much do with the pounding he took and the amount of carries he got in college more then anything. It shortened his NFL career.

    This post was edited by TheDudeAbides21 on 7/29/2012 at 1:02 PM

    TheDudeAbides21

  • TheBlitzIsOn said...

    How can you claim "that's the reality" when you're trying to predict the future? People claimed that MSU getting lucky was "the reality" and it was all over for them in 2009, 2010, and 2011 when they beat UM. People claimed that getting lucky was "the reality" and it was over when they lost Greg Jones from their defense, and then Chris L Rucker.

    The fact is that MSU returns 18/22 players (iirc) on their defense, which was widely considered best in the B1G last year. They have lost ONE offensive lineman (sidestepping your "first team all B10 OL" which makes it sound like they have huge losses there) and one defensive lineman, a tackle. The rest of the lines have great depth for the first time in Dantonio's time at MSU. Every position except QB has been battle tested (yes, even the WRs. We have two upperclassmen (Fowler and Lippett) who have seen a lot of time on the field but have been fighting injuries so they aren't exactly household names) and you also have to remember that these are the WRs Maxwell has been playing with for years on the scout team. Not only is he familiar with them, but he is an Elite 11 QB who has been groomed for the last three years under Cousins.

    Because of all this, saying "the reality is" could be the recipe for being upset again. You say that it would be a challenge for Alabama to lose those starts and I agree that MSU isn't as deep or talented as Alabama, BUT what MSU and Alabama, or any other contending team, has in common is a strong O Line, strong defense, and a strong running game. 4/5 OL returners, 18/22 defensive players returning from the conference's best unit, a junior #1 RB and a senior backing him, and yes, you have the recipe for a scary talented and successful team.

    I think we can all agree that Wisconsin should moonwalk into the CCG. OSU is ineligible and no one else looks to be able to rise to that sort of competition. I think our division has a logjam at the top that consists of MSU, UM, and Nebraska. Iowa could even pull a surprise out of their hat this year but I think it's less likely than the first three teams.

    I'm not claiming any BCS games or national titles runs, just simply saying that there are many reasons to believe that MSU will be good again this year.

    Reality is what Sparty's going to come back to this fall.

    MrWoodson

  • TheBlitzIsOn said...

    I think that's an unfair comparison because there was a complete changing of the guard in 2008. New coaches, new system, and a lot of true freshman starting. Even the experienced players were learning new offensive and defensive playbooks. Many of them were not built for RR's spread, so it's not fair to say that the talent from 2007 and 2008 were comparable. Many of those skill positions also started 18 year olds that RR brought over, which is not comparable to RS players who have been sitting for 2-3 years waiting for their time to step into the same schemes, like at MSU.

    I'm not saying Sparty is going to go 3-9. I'm saying that even without the hire of RR, Michigan would have very likely taken a step back after 2007. You can't lose all that talent and not skip a beat. No one can.

    MrWoodson

  • MrWoodson said...

    This has nothing to do with Dantonio. Remember our transition from 2007 to 2008? We lost Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham and Arrington. That's what MSU is dealing with this year plus they lost two of their best players on D.

    MSU went 10-2 last year with all that talent.

    Imagine that. 'All that talent' from recruiting classes that weren't even ranked in the top 20 in the nation...

    'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable' - President John F. Kennedy

    WixomSpartan

  • MrWoodson said...

    Reality is what Sparty's going to come back to this fall.

    sincerely,

    Sam Webb

    circa 2009
    circa 2010
    circa 2011
    circa 2012

    'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable' - President John F. Kennedy

    WixomSpartan

  • MrWoodson said...

    Reality is what Sparty's going to come back to this fall.

    I wish I could share your optimism. Offensively they have a couple of questions marks but that D should still be one of the best in the B1G. I fully expect them to be in the mix to win the legends division.

    GoBlue81 ●

  • BrianD said...

    I wish I could share your optimism. Offensively they have a couple of questions marks but that D should still be one of the best in the B1G. I fully expect them to be in the mix to win the legends division.

    Agree with at least being "in the mix". I think the MSU/UM game this year is going to be a huge decider for who wins the division. I see a logjam at the top with MSU, UM, and Nebraska. Maybe even Iowa because they always seem to surprise when you least expect it. If nothing else it should make for an interesting fall because we all play each other and we should all be pretty good.

    signature image

    TheBlitzIsOn

  • MrWoodson said...

    I'm not saying Sparty is going to go 3-9. I'm saying that even without the hire of RR, Michigan would have very likely taken a step back after 2007. You can't lose all that talent and not skip a beat. No one can.

    Disagree, yeah they lost guys but just as with the case with Michigan who did they lose that were actual difference makers? Worthy and that is pretty much it. Cousins had a great career at MSU, but he was not what I would call a "elite quarterback" and Cunningham and Martin were not "elite wideouts" more like good college system players. Losing Cousins hurts from a leadership standpoint more then anything that is really the only area where I see MSU taking a step back. When I think of elite playmakers or difference makers though I think of guys like Braylon, David Terrell, Henson(Should have kept playing football), ATrain, Long, Chris Perry, etc from an MSU perspective guys like Plaxico, Rison, Lorenzo White, etc... basically guys who get taken in the first round of the NFL draft. I think people drastically overstate the losses that Michigan and MSU lost both respectively. Losing guys who go in the first 3 rounds of the NFL draft are true losses because they are what I would consider "high level players" between the 2 schools only 2 players went in the first 3 rounds last year and that was Worthy and Mike Martin(Barely). This is no disrespect to those other guys who got taken later like a Molk, Hemmingway, Cunningham, Cousins, Martin, and Trent Robinson or even a guy like Van Bergen who did not get drafted... I just don't consider them true losses they all had very good college careers and they all had very good senior seasons, but none are what I would call high level players or true difference makers. If they were they would have been taken higher in the draft and in my mind someone can only be deemed a loss if the player you are replacing said player with is not as talented as the one departing. In both of these schools cases outside of Worthy and Martin that is not the case in my opinion. I scoff at the notion that either school will take a step back because of what they "supposedly lost."

    As far as the game between both schools this year... I think it's going to decide who wins the Legends division and ultimately who ends up winning the Big Ten title as I don't think Wisconsin is good enough to beat either team. I have a different take on it than most do probably. MSU has more proven talent overall than Michigan does, but I believe the ceiling level of Michigan's players is higher. If it was the first game of the season I would give the edge to MSU, but since it's not and a bunch of our flaws should be worked out by then I think Michigan wins. Homefield advantage sure doesn't hurt either.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by TheDudeAbides21 on 7/30/2012 at 9:24 PM

    TheDudeAbides21

  • UMRSB said...

    Recruiting classes for MSU are already falling off. Talent eventually will win outright. The tide has turned.

    Dantonio's 2012 class was his second highest rated at MSU and he's on pace to have his 3rd highest rated in 2013

    What falling off are you talking about?

    HouseDivided

  • TheDudeAbides21 said...

    Disagree, yeah they lost guys but just as with the case with Michigan who did they lose that were actual difference makers? Worthy and that is pretty much it. Cousins had a great career at MSU, but he was not what I would call a "elite quarterback" and Cunningham and Martin were not "elite wideouts" more like good college system players. Losing Cousins hurts from a leadership standpoint more then anything that is really the only area where I see MSU taking a step back. When I think of elite playmakers or difference makers though I think of guys like Braylon, David Terrell, Henson(Should have kept playing football), ATrain, Long, Chris Perry, etc from an MSU perspective guys like Plaxico, Rison, Lorenzo White, etc... basically guys who get taken in the first round of the NFL draft. I think people drastically overstate the losses that Michigan and MSU lost both respectively. Losing guys who go in the first 3 rounds of the NFL draft are true losses because they are what I would consider "high level players" between the 2 schools only 2 players went in the first 3 rounds last year and that was Worthy and Mike Martin(Barely). This is no disrespect to those other guys who got taken later like a Molk, Hemmingway, Cunningham, Cousins, Martin, and Trent Robinson or even a guy like Van Bergen who did not get drafted... I just don't consider them true losses they all had very good college careers and they all had very good senior seasons, but none are what I would call high level players or true difference makers. If they were they would have been taken higher in the draft and in my mind someone can only be deemed a loss if the player you are replacing said player with is not as talented as the one departing. In both of these schools cases outside of Worthy and Martin that is not the case in my opinion. I scoff at the notion that either school will take a step back because of what they "supposedly lost."

    As far as the game between both schools this year... I think it's going to decide who wins the Legends division and ultimately who ends up winning the Big Ten title as I don't think Wisconsin is good enough to beat either team. I have a different take on it than most do probably. MSU has more proven talent overall than Michigan does, but I believe the ceiling level of Michigan's players is higher. If it was the first game of the season I would give the edge to MSU, but since it's not and a bunch of our flaws should be worked out by then I think Michigan wins. Homefield advantage sure doesn't hurt either.

    I mean, you obv have the right to your opinion, but I have to disagree. MSU lost a 3-year starter at QB and players representing 84% of their receiving yards and 85% of their receiving touchdowns. I don't care if those guys weren't elite playmakers going in the early rounds to the NFL, that kind of experience is hard to replace, period. Their leading returning receiver is a TE who caught 12 balls last year; their leading returning WR had 4 catches. Their passing game will almost certainly take a big step back at the beginning of the season if not for the entire season, which means by extension the team will have to take a step back. Players don't have to have been stars drafted early by the NFL to have a big, not-immediately/easily-replaceable value to the team.

    inuyesta

  • inuyesta said...

    I mean, you obv have the right to your opinion, but I have to disagree. MSU lost a 3-year starter at QB and players representing 84% of their receiving yards and 85% of their receiving touchdowns. I don't care if those guys weren't elite playmakers going in the early rounds to the NFL, that kind of experience is hard to replace, period. Their leading returning receiver is a TE who caught 12 balls last year; their leading returning WR had 4 catches. Their passing game will almost certainly take a big step back at the beginning of the season if not for the entire season, which means by extension the team will have to take a step back. Players don't have to have been stars drafted early by the NFL to have a big, not-immediately/easily-replaceable value to the team.

    Dion Sims their returning tight end is more talented then the guys that left and the wide receiver talent is pretty comparable to the guys that left if not more talented, and I also don't think there is going to be some huge drop off passing wise. MSU was only 41st nationally in passing yards last year, while that might take a step back initially because of the departures I don't see their team going "backwards" because of it... their running game should be alot better then it was last year and with the defense they have they should win alot of games because of those 2 things alone. I stand by my comments about the NFL draft, you win games with people.

    TheDudeAbides21

  • HouseDivided said...

    Dantonio's 2012 class was his second highest rated at MSU and he's on pace to have his 3rd highest rated in 2013

    What falling off are you talking about?

    panic

    buttesnake

  • TheDudeAbides21 said...

    Dion Sims their returning tight end is more talented then the guys that left and the wide receiver talent is pretty comparable to the guys that left if not more talented, and I also don't think there is going to be some huge drop off passing wise. MSU was only 41st nationally in passing yards last year, while that might take a step back initially because of the departures I don't see their team going "backwards" because of it... their running game should be alot better then it was last year and with the defense they have they should win alot of games because of those 2 things alone. I stand by my comments about the NFL draft, you win games with people.

    C'mon...Do you really believe this?? Sims has shown that he cant win the job!! 3 years with no impact. You are expecting tooo much ADDITION by subtraction, imo.

    signature image signature image signature image

    wingerine66 ●

  • wingerine66 said...

    C'mon...Do you really believe this?? Sims has shown that he cant win the job!! 3 years with no impact. You are expecting tooo much ADDITION by subtraction, imo.

    Just because he was not starting does not mean he is not any good. He was behind upperclassmen and has patiently waited his turn, now he gets his chance.

    TheDudeAbides21

  • TheDudeAbides21 said...

    Just because he was not starting does not mean he is not any good. He was behind upperclassmen and has patiently waited his turn, now he gets his chance.

    Campbell, Black, and Beyer will be studs on the dline for Michigan. They were patiently waiting their turn, now they get their chance.

    xxmgobluexx ●

  • TheDudeAbides21 said...

    Just because he was not starting does not mean he is not any good. He was behind upperclassmen and has patiently waited his turn, now he gets his chance.

    Thats kinda like saying Elliott Mealer was more talented than the guys that left. Now he will be awesome. shrug

    This post was edited by wingerine66 on 7/31/2012 at 1:54 PM

    signature image signature image signature image

    wingerine66 ●

  • xxmgobluexx said...

    Campbell, Black, and Beyer will be studs on the dline for Michigan. They were patiently waiting their turn, now they get their chance.

    I wouldn't be surprised... especially Campbell. They are finally getting competent coaching and in year 2 with 3 elite dline coaches, I expect big strides.

    This post was edited by TheDudeAbides21 on 7/31/2012 at 2:03 PM

    TheDudeAbides21

  • wingerine66 said...

    Thats kinda like saying Elliott Mealer was more talented than the guys that left. Now he will be awesome. shrug

    That is not even a fair comparison. Mealer entire life was changed as well as his football career because of that one fateful night on Christmas eve. It had a huge impact on his career here. Mealer is not even going to start btw even though im rooting for the kid.

    TheDudeAbides21

Michigan
247Sports
Features
Resources
Connect

247Sports In partnership with CBS Sports